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Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/9/2020 10:47:19 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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Those given in the game a WILDLY wrong. Worse, the construction times for submarines have been REDUCED in the latest patch. No wonder the German U-Boats are running rampant.

A typical submarine took approximately a year to build and commission ... even the late war German Type XXI's, which were supposedly modular and could be constructed in 6 months were so rushed in design and of such poor quality that they actually took LONGER than the traditional designs to FIX after they were assembled.

This means, in effect, that the Germans should have their initial builds in the production queue and should NOT be able to change them ... and any they begin to build in September 1939 should then not be available until September 1940.

Fortunately, I have sources for U-Boat availability numbers (construction/loss/total available) for the period in question so they can be added quite easily ...

This will prevent the current ridiculously gamey situation where the Germans get instant gratification ... U-Boats in 100 days.

I'd possibly allow the Germans to get those 100 day Subs for a short while at the beginning of the war BUT at a HUGE cost increase to represent the stripping of resources from the Heer and the Luftwaffe BEFORE the war, which is what an increased building program would have involved ... and only till the end of 1939. If at all.

Destroyers typically took around the same time to build as submarines, 11-12 months (including commissioning).

CLs = ~2 years.
CAs = ~2.66 years.
BBs = ~4 years.
CVs = ~12-15 months.

DEs and Corvettes took only slightly less time to build than DDs.

The pre-war production that was already underway in the UK, Commonwealth, France, USSR and USA is a problem ... I don't have handy figures and it seems ... sorta unfair ... to hobble the Germans with historical production requirements and not similarly hobble the Allies.

That said, the current situation is RIDICULOUSLY and OVERWHELMINGLY favourable to the Germans.

Or you could reduce the production time of ALL vessels to 100 days, which would *slightly* rebalance things, but nowhere near enough ... you'd have to reduce costs for the ALLIES quite considerably as well.

Phil McGregor

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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/10/2020 2:23:13 AM   
battlevonwar


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How many U-boats were laid down for construction pre-war though? Perhaps that should be figured in if you are going to be historically accurate. Hadn't all sides had BBs/CVs/DDs/CAs/SSs/etc... laid down and were building them?

As for the Axis, try it...
There is a limit on the Subs you can build by the Dockyards so it's not really possible to put out 100 instantly ... Plus if you did that you would be really gimped elsewhere!

(in reply to aspqrz02)
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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/10/2020 3:17:49 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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In September 1939 the KM had 14 Type IIB Coastal Boats, 1 Type 1A and 9 Type VII Atlantic boats that were operational.

13 Type IIC Coastal Boats were in the process of working up as were 8 Type VIIB Atlantic Boats ... that is, they were finishing training and were NOT available for operations.

12 more were being used at the Submarine Training School or were undergoing acceptance trials (i.e. they weren't even 'working up' and most DEFINITELY weren't available for operations).

Month Total SS Frontboote
1939
September 57 39
October 51 39
November 52 33
December 54 34

1940
January 54 33
February 50 35
March 50 34
April 47 34
May 49 31
June 51 27
July 53 30
August 55 27
September 61 27
October 68 30
November 74 24
December 83 27

1941
January 94 22
February 103 21
March 109 27
April 121 28
May 139 33
June 150 38
July 169 53
August 184 64
September 197 73
October 219 75
November 238 81
December 250 88

* Frontboote = 'submarines available for actual operations'

Since a Sub Group is '10-15 submarines out at any one time' that means that the two Sub groups at start (in the 1939 scenario) represent ~15 subs each and include the Subs nominally 'working up' at the beginning of the month.

That means that it won't be until July 1942 that the Germans will actually get a third group ... allowing for losses/repairs and replacements, that means they probably should start with NO submarines 'in the pipeline' and that German submarines should take 365 days to build. The next 'Group' wouldn't then appear until December 1941 ... for a total of 4 Groups, not the ridiculous NINE bandied around elsewhere.

Assuming a Patrol Group consists of 8-10 DD, the RN should add +1-2 Patrol Groups by the end of 1939 and +6-7 over the course of 1940, all pre-war construction.

Phil McGregor

< Message edited by aspqrz02 -- 1/10/2020 6:51:13 AM >


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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/10/2020 4:20:35 AM   
ago1000


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Being a game, 365 days MAY remove a strategic option of play for the Axis player. The game is design to deal with naval warfare a certain way. Note: It was stated in other posts that the sub unit is being tweaked.
Historically vs Game Play
Historically, 1162 Uboats were built. The war lasted about 2075 days(Europe), therefore at present with a 15:100:10 Uboat:days:shipyard ratio AND using 40 of my shipyards constantly as Axis to build subs only, I can build 4 x (15/100) x 2075 = 1245 Uboats (83 sub units) in game terms (about 7% over historical). If I change the value to being more historically correct and have a 15:365:10 ratio then I can build 4 x (15/365) x 2075 = 341 Uboats (about 23 units). (about 30% historical).

Reality, building in the game 83 or even 23 sub units would be a waste of Axis resources and not a good Axis strategy. The oil use alone would cripple your military. So the real concern is changing the build time to 365 days, might make the sub unit ineffective in the game based off of the current naval game mechanics.

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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/10/2020 7:11:43 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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It really doesn't matter AT ALL how many Subs the Germans BUILT (and a lot were not completed at the end of the war and shouldn't be counted anyway), but how many they had OPERATIONAL and, even more important than THAT, how many they could keep AT SEA AT THE ONE TIME.

The info above is indicative ... even by the December 1941 when they 'had' 250 U-Boats, only 88 (a bit over 1/3) were OPERATIONAL ... and, of those, they could only keep and average of TWENTY FIVE at sea at any given time. Two Groups, if you stretch the definition.

June 42 - 336 Subs, 126 Frontboote - 59 at sea at any given time, on average, about 4 Groups.

December 42 - 403 Subs, 204 Frontboote - 97 at sea at any given time, on average, or 6 groups.

June 43 - 428 Subs, 214 Frontboote - 86 at sea at any given time, on average, 5-6 Groups. Tonnage sunk per U-Boat per day at sea sinks to less than 100 tons.

December 43 - 452 Subs, 175 Frontboote - 86 at sea at any given time, on average, still 5-6 Groups. Tonnage sunk per U-Boat per day at sea sinks to under 50 tons.

June 44 - 435 Subs, 178 Frontboote - 47 at sea at any given time, on average. Now down to 3 Groups. Tonnage sunk per U-Boat per day at sea remains under 50 tons.

December 44 - 428 Subs, 135 Frontboote - 51 at sea at any given time, on average. Still ~3 Groups. Tonnage now under 25 tons sunk per U-Boat per day at sea.

So, even at their maximum, 250 Frontboote, or 16-17 Groups, they couldn't keep more than SIX Groups AT SEA, on average, at any given time.

Note that, yes, they built a LOT - which is really irrelevant, but they LOST a lot and those that they built sank less and less ... and yet they never had more that 250 OPERATIONAL boats at any given time.

So, at the very least, the range and endurance of the U-Boats might need to be cut dramatically to represent both the number operational and the number that could be kept at sea.

The existing situation is suitable for german fanboys only.

I suspect that one other problem is that now German Subs start at 1940 technology ... yet the teething problems of the boats, torpedoes and detection systems they had at the beginning of the war were such that, even if that were true (and it certainly doesn't seem to be on any reasonable reading of the situation) they were certainly not OPERATING at that level of effectiveness IN 1939. And the Allies caught up with ASW and Escort effectiveness VERY quickly ...

Phil McGregor





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(in reply to ago1000)
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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/10/2020 7:17:32 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000
Being a game, 365 days MAY remove a strategic option of play for the Axis player.


Being a game, 540 days for a CV group may remove a strategic option for the Allied player ... if 365 days are reduced to 100 days for submarines, the 365-415 days for a CV (NOT 540) should be reduced proportionally ... to 127 days.

Sound reasonable?

Or you only interested in the GERMAN player having totally unrealistic options?

Phil McGregor

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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/10/2020 10:53:49 AM   
tyronec


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Looking at the overall game balance of the war in the Atlantic from my current game. Axis have taken Spain which allows them closer access to the Southern Atlantic convoy and a supporting bomber in the Azores. They have deployed all of the Italian sub and surface fleets against convoys, plus all of the German navy.

I am playing the Allies and was not expecting a serious sub war and so was not doing UK builds to counter it until after the fall of France.

Even in this situation there is no real danger to the Allied convoys, my merchant marine is keeping ahead of losses. It is absorbing a lot of UK production but that is all.

So I would conclude that the balance of the sub war for at least the early game is reasonable, if anything it might be in favor of the Allies. There are three significant inhibitors for Axis:
1. They need their early war resources to build up for Barbarossa.
2. Even if the wanted to launch a massive sub war against the UK they can't because they don't have the shipyards to build many more subs.
3. Even if they could trash the UK merchant fleet (which is probably only possible if the Allied player gets badly outplayed) am not persuaded that it will compromise the Allies too much.

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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/10/2020 12:14:01 PM   
ago1000


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@aspqrz02

I"m not trying to stir the pot here but Phil yes. If it provides a balance game with multiple strategies, options for both sides. I am totally for that.

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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/10/2020 12:20:20 PM   
Zovs


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I would disagree that it takes a year to build one sub, I did search but could not find any German production values on submarines.

From my playings of the 1976 board game from SPI called War in Europe (granted it was 1976 and the data available was not what we have now) but it took 5 Cycles or 20 weekly turns to build one submarine point and it was costly in terms of production points to build one. So I think that 5-6 months is reasonable considering the following:

"THE GERMAN NAVY commenced World War II with fifty-six submarines, of which only twenty four were suitable for operations in the Atlantic. In the five and a half years of the war, German shipyards built 1,156 U-boats, of which 784 were lost from enemy action or other causes."

Source: https://www.navyhistory.org.au/british-and-german-submarine-statistics-of-world-war-ii/

Grated this is Wiki, but the production varied it seemed from 5 months to less then a year to build each sub. This one was one of the shortest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-110_(1940)

Total 9 months, but I would say the launch date so 6 months.
Laid down: 1 February 1940
Launched: 25 August 1940
Commissioned: 21 November 1940

So one could argue the case for WIE 5 Cycles or 20 weeks. Perhaps a better system would be a random number system to determine when they would get produced.

Here is some other stats (forgot to capture the U-XXX number):

Total 17 months, but I would say the launch date so 14 months.
Laid down: 15 March 1937
Launched: 14 May 1938
Commissioned: 4 August 1938

Total 11 months, but I would say the launch date so 8 months.
Laid down: 7 August 1941
Launched: 30 April 1942
Commissioned: 8 July 1942

Total 10 months, but I would say the launch date so 7 months.
Laid down: 20 March 1940
Launched: 10 October 1940
Commissioned: 2 January 1941

Total 10 months, but I would say the launch date so 7 months.
Laid down: 6 September 1939
Launched: 12 April 1940
Commissioned: 5 July 1940

All in all I am biased to SPI's WIE and think 5 cycles or 20 weeks should be sufficient for a war game. Technical I'd say 6 months to build with some randomness built in to make it exciting and a bit more historic.

< Message edited by Zovs -- 1/10/2020 12:21:00 PM >


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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/10/2020 12:43:44 PM   
hansondavid4

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I would disagree that it takes a year to build one sub, I did search but could not find any German production values on submarines.

From my playings of the 1976 board game from SPI called War in Europe (granted it was 1976 and the data available was not what we have now) but it took 5 Cycles or 20 weekly turns to build one submarine point and it was costly in terms of production points to build one. So I think that 5-6 months is reasonable considering the following:

"THE GERMAN NAVY commenced World War II with fifty-six submarines, of which only twenty four were suitable for operations in the Atlantic. In the five and a half years of the war, German shipyards built 1,156 U-boats, of which 784 were lost from enemy action or other causes."

Source: https://www.navyhistory.org.au/british-and-german-submarine-statistics-of-world-war-ii/

Grated this is Wiki, but the production varied it seemed from 5 months to less then a year to build each sub. This one was one of the shortest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-110_(1940)

Total 9 months, but I would say the launch date so 6 months.
Laid down: 1 February 1940
Launched: 25 August 1940
Commissioned: 21 November 1940

So one could argue the case for WIE 5 Cycles or 20 weeks. Perhaps a better system would be a random number system to determine when they would get produced.

Here is some other stats (forgot to capture the U-XXX number):

Total 17 months, but I would say the launch date so 14 months.
Laid down: 15 March 1937
Launched: 14 May 1938
Commissioned: 4 August 1938

Total 11 months, but I would say the launch date so 8 months.
Laid down: 7 August 1941
Launched: 30 April 1942
Commissioned: 8 July 1942

Total 10 months, but I would say the launch date so 7 months.
Laid down: 20 March 1940
Launched: 10 October 1940
Commissioned: 2 January 1941

Total 10 months, but I would say the launch date so 7 months.
Laid down: 6 September 1939
Launched: 12 April 1940
Commissioned: 5 July 1940

All in all I am biased to SPI's WIE and think 5 cycles or 20 weeks should be sufficient for a war game. Technical I'd say 6 months to build with some randomness built in to make it exciting and a bit more historic.

You really want the Commissioned date. That is the earliest it can be deployed. I am less certain of subs but for surface ships, launch meant when it was now floating. If you look at pictures of ships when "launched" they would not have much of the machinery installed. No turrets. Superstructure not completely built out. It is not ready for actions. Commission is when it is turned over to the navy. Even then there is usually months of training before it was combat ready.

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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/10/2020 3:33:55 PM   
battlevonwar


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I am a complete novice about the Atlantic War(watched 20 documentaries of propaganda elementary school level shows on it) but coastal u-boats did sink ships they cannot in game. Their mines were effective ... that is not represented in game... A lot of "ABSTRACTION" in game but we have to monitor if something can be exploited to the point of 'insanity'. Agreed? Not sure how game breaking this strategy is but I playing a current PBEM and my opponent is 'dealing' with a strong Atlantic War first year out. He is sinking U-boats faster than I can put them out to sea.

P.S. Lots of ships weren't even Torp'd in WW2, early on they were gunned or captured. There were commerce raiders not rep'd in game. Abstraction is a few lines of convoy lanes and Unit Called U-Boat/Submarine.

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 1/10/2020 3:34:41 PM >

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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/10/2020 10:15:01 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000
@aspqrz02

I"m not trying to stir the pot here but Phil yes. If it provides a balance game with multiple strategies, options for both sides. I am totally for that.


There IS no 'balance' in History ... if you want to play a glorified game of 'Risk' then you may have 'balance'.

Sure, I get it, many players WANT that glorified game of Risk ... but that doesn't mean ALL players want that.

As I have said before, the way to 'balance' a Wargame is through the victory conditions ... do you, as a player, faced with the exact same historical constraints, do better or worse than the original commander?

If you want 'balanced' elements, then I, personally, believe that 125 day CV building times 'balances' the relative weakness of the Allied airpower vs what it was, or could have been, historically, against the U-Boats.

That makes the game more 'Risk' like, or is it only giving Germany unbalanced war winning options that is acceptable?

Phil

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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/11/2020 7:33:14 PM   
Meteor2


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The approach, to introduce more realistic build times for the vessels is an interessting one.
With the mentioned times (see above) and with the slot filled with the per-war orders, the naval aspect
of the game would become different, but interessting.
The build time for the German high-tech uboats was planned with 22 month in the beginning, but optimisations
(60 to 80 hours per week for the dock workers!!!) reduced that to 7 month.
With technical problems for the final commisioning as a consequence. So 12 month is a good guess for Uboats.

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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/11/2020 9:14:56 PM   
battlevonwar


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Phil with the introduction of reduced cost Subs/even reduced Production times. I am experiencing no glory with them other than they're not completely destroyed or in Port somewhere off in the middle of nowhere trying to raid something in 1.5

Ireland gets Annexed usually(I doubt the US would of liked this) and then Iceland/Greenland have Air Coverage. The Northern North Atlantic with CVs has no easy zone as it may have had historically. Not if the Allied Player is clever to it. Escorts are devastating ...

As in my previous games the Axis have to 'invest' and that means she is weak elsewhere to get a return that or break out of the Med which would of been a disaster if the UK allowed it. Spain pushes up US readiness?

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RE: Submarine and Warship Construction Times - 1/11/2020 11:35:57 PM   
scout1


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Here's another uboat reference ….

https://uboat.net/


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Post #: 15
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