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1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit in Inf. Weps

 
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1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit in ... - 1/8/2020 1:33:15 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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By giving the USSR player a starting chit in Infantry Weapons, this will help new players in their first PBEM matches who don't realize the importance of this research. In addition, it will give allied players a greater feeling of choice, as players usually prioritize this tech immediately already (personally I refund advanced aircraft on turn 1 to get enough MPP for a chit in inf. Weps.)

This reasoning can be extended to China as well.

I'd say that the allies should be nerfed slightly somehow to compensate for this.
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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/8/2020 5:42:46 PM   
EarlyDoors

 

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Agree

USSR need something extra

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/9/2020 12:39:25 AM   
lwarmonger

 

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Concur. Soviets need more... I think the Chinese just need more of their productivity moved away from the frontline with Japan. Reduce the economic incentives for Japan to push forward, and increase China's staying power.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/9/2020 3:31:38 AM   
Sugar

 

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Just to mention: according to the tourney results the game is already very balanced, and such a change would be significant.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/9/2020 4:15:16 AM   
lwarmonger

 

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I think the issue here is that against an experienced player (which by all accounts hamburgermeat is... I havent played against him but against other experienced players, and i agree) Russia and China have to do exactly one series of very carefully planned moves to even have a chance to survive. Every other nation in the game has options for how to best achieve victory... but these two do not. And even if everything is perfectly done, you still will probably lose.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/9/2020 5:22:50 AM   
lwarmonger

 

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Also, by "evenly balanced" do you mean an even chance for Axis or Allied victory? Or do you mean an even chance that the Axis beats what they did historically by surviving past summer 1945?

Because it should be hard to conquer the world as the Axis. Really hard. As things are, it is the way to bet with two evenly matched players.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/9/2020 12:08:08 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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I'm pretty sure Sugar means even chance for victory. I think this is the balance that the developers are striving for.

And again, I don't think this change should happen for free. The allies should lose something (maybe another starting research chit or something)

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/9/2020 1:26:44 PM   
Sugar

 

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quote:

And even if everything is perfectly done, you still will probably lose.


No, you will most probably win. Results from the tourney (as of end 2019) Axis 19 : Allies 21.

quote:

Every other nation in the game has options for how to best achieve victory... but these two do not.


That's the strategical situation. Might limit your freedom to play, but is historical. Play Axis then.

quote:

Because it should be hard to conquer the world as the Axis. Really hard.


Not harder as it should be for the Allies.

I know from watching the discussion about balancing and V 1.05 many Allied players mean the Axis shouldn't be able to win at all, and astonishingly no single Axis player stepped in so far, but that's not what this game is about.

quote:

this will help new players in their first PBEM matches


New players playing the Allies... Or you could just tell them instead of influencing the balancing to one side. One way to support new players of both factions would be to rework the supply rules; the way it is now most rookies don't know how to organize sufficient supply in Africa and China; or in the Middle East of WW I.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/9/2020 1:49:01 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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I should add that I don't think that the allies are underpowered (on the contrary I think they're solidly much stronger than the axis). I just recommend this for (1) newer players and (2) give the feeling of greater choice in research options. The allies would have to be nerfed somehow if this was implemented.

The reason i brought this topic up was because of complaints about feeling like there's a lack of player agency. The agency when playing the USSR comes mostly from defensive positioning, not tech options. I just suggested this to create a slightly better feeling for player agency in the early game

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/9/2020 11:49:34 PM   
lwarmonger

 

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So I play both axis and allies... I typically play mirror games. I have games I'm winning as both axis and allies, and some that I am losing or lost as each. My personal opinion is that it is easier to play as axis, and it really shouldnt be. Germany can generally recover from a mistake or two, and has a variety of options for how to play and still be successful. Japan is the same. The United States and Britain as well, although their agency tends to come later.

However china and the USSR, especially the USSR, dont really seem to. You have one narrow path to victory, all things being equal. The axis should be harder to play overall, and I dont think that they are. I have started taking allied only games to refine the USSR and China strategy and to try some different things... but I dont need to do that with the axis, and that leads me to believe there is an imbalance between how the two sides play right now.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 7:34:57 AM   
sveint


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My results are not balanced at all, when I play the game clearly favors the Axis no matter which side I play.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 8:16:09 AM   
boudi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Just to mention: according to the tourney results the game is already very balanced...


Clearly we are not playing the same game. When Germany can put around 10 tanks level 3 supported by tons of close air support in oct'42 in Soviet Union and kill 4 soviet units every turn i don't know where is the "very balanced game". And before it was the same story in the desert war against british forces, taking Suez is a kid game for Axis, only 1 panzer do the job.

Sorry for the off topic.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 12:33:06 PM   
Sugar

 

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quote:

Clearly we are not playing the same game.


What about improving your gameplay in the first place, when there are obviously other players doing better than you do?


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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 12:37:48 PM   
boudi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

quote:

Clearly we are not playing the same game.


What about improving your gameplay in the first place, when there are obviously other players doing better than you do?




Strange, when you open the multiplayers window you can often find games where you have to plays Allies, no more later than yesterday, and no game where you can play Axis. Very strange...

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 1:05:53 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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I would be happy to demonstrate allied superiority to any challenger

However lwarmonger is correct when he says that the allies are harder to play. I agree it should be the other way around, but that's just the nature of the game I suppose

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 1/10/2020 1:11:06 PM >

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 1:10:35 PM   
boudi

 

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Don't make the same mistake than some good players made previously. The question is not how a good or very good player can win with Allies, the question is how an average allies player can hope to win a game against an average axis player. It's more or less impossible since the game release, and patches did'nt change anything.

< Message edited by boudi -- 1/10/2020 1:12:16 PM >

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 1:12:40 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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I'm not sure how that is done without making the allies impossible to beat versus a good allied player. I wrote an allied strategy guide for 1.03 in these forums somewhere, which is somewhat dated due to the research changes, but the basics remain the same

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 1/10/2020 1:16:04 PM >

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 1:14:53 PM   
Sugar

 

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The tourneys in WiE were held primarily to judge balancing, and took place over more than 3 years; I'd highly recommend to follow their conclusion, since they are the only known facts. Both tourneys in WiE and WaW are showing the Allies slightly favoured, and all players agreed to judge the balancing as nearly perfect, even before the latest changes in favour of the Allies.

My personnel perception is there are players demanding changes who not even read the manual. But that may be just a perception.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 1:23:15 PM   
boudi

 

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Sugar, despite that you wrote, most of post complain about a very unbalanced game. As i wrote previously it's easy to find an allied multiplayer game than an axis game. Law of Supply and Demand gives the truth.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 1:26:35 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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The best solution I can think of is to buff the USSR while nerfing the USA. This is a very delicate balancing act though, as too much will make it extremely difficult for the axis to conquer the USSR

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 1:41:54 PM   
boudi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar


My personnel perception is there are players demanding changes who not even read the manual. But that may be just a perception.


As soviet player :
Research prority on infantry techs, infantry warfare and AA techs : done
Search best places for defense : behind rivers, marsh, town : done
Close the most possible your HQs to your units : done
Check which units your Hqs command an support, units in the front line : done
Put AA units and fighter next your units : done
Rebuilt in priority previous destroyed bonus, they are cheapper and are built quickly : done.
Check the 2 supply grids every turns, try to not put units on a hex<7 : done
Build fortification in front of Lenigrad and Moscow, or/and Caucasus : done (i buid i second engineer unit as soon as possible)

What can i do more ? Nothing.


< Message edited by boudi -- 1/10/2020 1:58:08 PM >

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 1:45:34 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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I wouldnt recommend marshes unless either (1) it's fortified/has a town in the same hex, or (2) youre only anticipating armored units to attack that hex. You can't build entrenchment in plain marsh hexes, and theyre very susceptible to air attacks.

Personally, I don't bother with aircraft at all . Only anti-air units and anti-air upgrades. Repairing fighters are very expensive, and they end up getting chewed up

Also Moscow has plenty of easily defensible terrain already, I would't bother adding more fortifications. Better to send those engineers south IMO

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 1/10/2020 5:21:35 PM >

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 2:27:21 PM   
eightroomofelixir

 

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A small opinion: I know the thread is about the Soviet Union in 1939 campaign, but I definitely second with Iwarmonger's point about China here, "reduce the economic incentives for Japan to push forward, and increase China's staying power." At least historically after 1939 Japan had already done with their economical ambition in the East Asian continent - trying to push forward into a economically backward and mountainous region would not benefit your war-time production strength, especially after the Pearl Harbor.
On the other hand, similar to the "Soviet opening procedures," China also requires a series of carefully planned moves in the opening as well, for example the technical investment, chip and unchip, and move a HQ to southern front. China has the possibilities to catch up with Japan in research, but not have any HQ behind half the length of your established front (in default) seems wired to me.

< Message edited by eightroomofelixir -- 1/10/2020 2:29:47 PM >


_____________________________

No conquest without labor.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 2:36:04 PM   
Sugar

 

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quote:

The best solution I can think of is to buff the USSR while nerfing the USA. This is a very delicate balancing act though, as too much will make it extremely difficult for the axis to conquer the USSR


Prove that change is necessary in the first place. The results suggest that's not the case.

quote:

You can't build entrenchment in marshes,


You can, and should. Further more, to compensate for the malus against air attacks, you can and should also upgrade the fortification with AA.

Even after my game against KZ in WiE, after the whole community agreed the balancing to be nearly perfect, there still were demands for changes, and no Axis player stepped in. I didn't take that seriously and ignored it, but those demands were granted, and for the worse of the game imho.

The changes in the latest updates seriously complicated the handling of supply. While this has been an issue for a long time already, it`s gotten far worse. From my perception 90% of the players have no clue how to handle supply, one of the most important features of this series. And it's affecting one side far more than the other.

I am probably the most experienced player of the entire series, and I can comprehend completely players want to play at first before studying the rules; but even if I`m losing against more skilled opponents, I wouldn't blame the game for my deficits. At least I know them very well, and if any opponent takes advantage of them, they deserve to win, that's what strategy games are about.

My suggestion: learn the supply rules at first. This will give you in many cases a serious advantage above most opponents; and if that's not already enough, there are many more things to learn. This game is very accessable, but far deeper than you think.

I'll try to make a rookie tutorial regarding supply.

(in reply to HamburgerMeat)
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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 2:39:27 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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Max entrenchment in a plain marsh is 0. You need to build fortifications, or have some other terrain feature or a town of some sort to get entrenchment.

I'm sure you know this, maybe there was just a misunderstanding

And my suggest to buff the USSR at the expense of the USA was to address the difficulty of playing allies as an average player. I am under no illusion that this would balance the game, quite the contrary. Allies are stronger in 1.05. But they are less accessible for new/average players who don't understand how to use all the tools available

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 1/10/2020 2:44:25 PM >

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 4:46:44 PM   
Sugar

 

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Max. entrenchement is determined by the fortification.

[image][URL=http://www.bild.me][/URL][/image]

< Message edited by Sugar -- 1/10/2020 4:47:02 PM >

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 5:20:17 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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Yes because there'a a fortification there. Without that fortification the max entrenchment on that hex would be 0

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 5:42:43 PM   
Sugar

 

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Sorry, are you kidding?

Your first claim was you couldn't build fortifications in marshes. That`s wrong. Next claim was you can't entrench in marshes. That`s also wrong after you built fortifications.

Considering the terain boni and mali add to the effect of fortifications, which also can be upgraded with AD, fortified marshes are the best defense hexes in the whole game. Place AA and Art. in the second row, and your opponent will have a hard time to get by.

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 5:53:47 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HamburgerMeat

I wouldnt recommend marshes unless either (1) it's fortified/has a town in the same hex, or (2) youre only anticipating armored units to attack that hex. You can't build entrenchment in plain marsh hexes, and theyre very susceptible to air attacks.




quote:

ORIGINAL: HamburgerMeat

Max entrenchment in a plain marsh is 0. You need to build fortifications, or have some other terrain feature or a town of some sort to get entrenchment.




quote:

ORIGINAL: HamburgerMeat

Yes because there'a a fortification there. Without that fortification the max entrenchment on that hex would be 0


Please reread. Maybe there is a translation problem?

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 1/10/2020 5:55:01 PM >

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RE: 1939 campaign - starting the USSR off with one chit... - 1/10/2020 5:58:30 PM   
HamburgerMeat

 

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And yes I agree that fortified marshes are great for defense. Great defensive bonuses against most attack types, and upgrading the AA levels of the fortifications themselves negate the penalty vs aircraft. Plus you get 4 entrenchment in WaW from the fortification

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 1/10/2020 5:59:27 PM >

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