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Command Points Germans - 1/6/2020 5:12:02 PM   
king171717


Posts: 187
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I am having trouble keeping my Armies at the proper CP when I am breaking my divisions up for the mud/snow/blizzard time. What do you guys do? Just go over the army/corp limit?
I have been transferring infantry divisions to Panzer group 1 and 3 as they have room. But I feel like the armies are the limiting factor.

Post #: 1
RE: Command Points Germans - 1/6/2020 6:05:16 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4428
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I would say you should always be able to find a corps HQ for every unit without going over the limit. Each army should be able to have three or four corps hQs in it without going over the limit, but you might need to have some corps HQs independent of armies. Indeed you can usually extend the command space many times by moving corps HQs out of armies and have them independent. And if need be assign unis directly to army HQs.

In particular remember to
i) Reassign all garrison and wintering units to OKH. Units sitting still in the rear, especially on a rail line, do not need to be assigned to a lower HQ
ii) Reassign German units to Finnish HQs if you capture both Leningrads. Finnish HQs have great leaders and not enough Finnish units to go in them - use them for the Germans.
iii) Use 103RHG HQ as a "corps" HQ - you can put independent regiments like the Croats and Danes in there, all cavalry units, the Slovak security division which has the ToE of an infantry unit and even have infantry divisions in there if you first assign them before they upgrade to a division from a brigade. Why waste this command space when you can turn it into a decent enough combat HQ
iv) Put German units under allied HQs. You have lots of Rumanian, Hungarian and Italian HQs to use. I do not understand the horror some have at this suggestion. It happened historically. And a southern allied commander does have better ratings than an overloaded German one.

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(in reply to king171717)
Post #: 2
RE: Command Points Germans - 1/6/2020 6:55:27 PM   
king171717


Posts: 187
Joined: 5/14/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I would say you should always be able to find a corps HQ for every unit without going over the limit. Each army should be able to have three or four corps hQs in it without going over the limit, but you might need to have some corps HQs independent of armies. Indeed you can usually extend the command space many times by moving corps HQs out of armies and have them independent. And if need be assign unis directly to army HQs.

In particular remember to
i) Reassign all garrison and wintering units to OKH. Units sitting still in the rear, especially on a rail line, do not need to be assigned to a lower HQ
ii) Reassign German units to Finnish HQs if you capture both Leningrads. Finnish HQs have great leaders and not enough Finnish units to go in them - use them for the Germans.
iii) Use 103RHG HQ as a "corps" HQ - you can put independent regiments like the Croats and Danes in there, all cavalry units, the Slovak security division which has the ToE of an infantry unit and even have infantry divisions in there if you first assign them before they upgrade to a division from a brigade. Why waste this command space when you can turn it into a decent enough combat HQ
iv) Put German units under allied HQs. You have lots of Rumanian, Hungarian and Italian HQs to use. I do not understand the horror some have at this suggestion. It happened historically. And a southern allied commander does have better ratings than an overloaded German one.


Ya i have been keeping corps short in some armies because of not wanting army to go over.
Ya my garrison forces have been attached to OKH.
Good idea. How much of a hit does corps take attaching to an army group instead of an army?
Taking divisions out that are in winter quarters is good idea. I was thinking of doing that as I do have enough admin points.
I only have 2 corp finns and 2 finn armies i think. I dont have game in front of me. Ya i got Leningrad with my finns 4-5 hexes away from cherepovets ? Finns Corps have 4 finns divisions in them already.
Great idea, YA cuz those German security dont need to be attach to those security corps. I do have my security corps full of construction units to move railway lines.

Ya i have lots of unused RU corps as i have a lot of RU bridges and divisions on cities right now. I might have to try this out.

How much of a hit do u take say at -1 at corp to like -4, -6.
Also do u keep your best inf, mech leaders at corp and as command goes up do you focus more on morale, admin and initiative? I find leaders like Model, Rendulic and Weiss so strong for those tough urban areas in Leningrad, Moscow, Sevastopol, with infantry units as Corp Commanders.
Like I feel like Manstein is a waste being a Panzer Group Leader. I still have very good leaders above them, but I feel u want the best at Corp. I also keep my army 5 hexes to battles that are very important.

< Message edited by king171717 -- 1/6/2020 7:01:39 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 3
RE: Command Points Germans - 1/6/2020 7:21:04 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
Good idea. How much of a hit does corps take attaching to an army group instead of an army?


It takes away one level of command ratings checks so significant. Although far less harm than letting commands get overloaded. I would say not ideal but not a problem. Remember higher level commanders only get to do ratings checks when lower level commanders fail theirs. if your lower level commanders are Rendulic, Model etc you might hardly ever need higher commander ratings anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
I only have 2 corp finns and 2 finn armies i think.

Enough for 24 divisions or 16 if broken down to regiments. With all the Finnish withdrawals the Finnish armies will be more German than Finnish!

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
Also do u keep your best inf, mech leaders at corp and as command goes up do you focus more on morale, admin and initiative?


Best inf/mech, admin and init at first level, all the higher levels morale is more important. Reality is for the higher leaders the range penalty will mean their admin/init/inf.mech scores do not really make much difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
Like I feel like Manstein is a waste being a Panzer Group Leader. I still have very good leaders above them, but I feel u want the best at Corp.

Yes - your best should be in your corps and only Field Marshals cannot head corps

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
I also keep my army 5 hexes to battles that are very important.

In that case keep them 1 hex away from the battle and they will have no penalty. If they are 2-3 hexes away they will have one penalty to their ratings, 4-5 hexes away two penalties and so on. Bottom line if the battle is important the very best is one hex away. Corps HQs on the other hand can be five hexes away and no difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
How much of a hit do u take say at -1 at corp

Do you mean over the command capacity. In general this is always very bad ... here is an explanation of why from elsewhere

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Although the exact formulas are complicated for most of the time you can approximate adding command points to be just like subtracting points from a command leadership rating. So adding a division (2 command points) over the command limit is like turning a rating six commander into a ratings four commander. The formula for calculating whether a ratings check is passed is complicated with many modifiers. But at its simplest it is saying each point of ratings will give you a 10% chance of passing a ratings check at first level (Soviet army?) and 5% at the second level (Soviet front).

Say you have a Soviet front with 30 divisions each with 10 ratings a turn checked at front level with a commander with ratings of 6 - then you have 300 ratings a turn checked with a probability of 30% of passing (6*5%) - or on average passing 90. If you add just one division over the limit then you 310 ratings checks a turn checked with a probability of 20% of passing ( (6-2)*5% ) - or an average passing 62. That is not just losing some of the ten checks on that one division you have just added - but many more losses on ALL of the divisions that are in the Front. That is just from adding one more division. If you add in a whole armies worth of divisions and you are effectively making the ratings of the Front command pointless. They then would have to rely on the ratings checks of STAVKA - but checks from STAVKA would be worth even less because it is even further up the command scale.

So the choice is a second level ratings check with STAVKA, or a second level ratings check with an overloaded front (effectively zero) followed by a third level ratings check with STAVKA (which is worth less than if it was second level)


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(in reply to king171717)
Post #: 4
RE: Command Points Germans - 1/6/2020 7:56:06 PM   
king171717


Posts: 187
Joined: 5/14/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
Good idea. How much of a hit does corps take attaching to an army group instead of an army?


It takes away one level of command ratings checks so significant. Although far less harm than letting commands get overloaded. I would say not ideal but not a problem. Remember higher level commanders only get to do ratings checks when lower level commanders fail theirs. if your lower level commanders are Rendulic, Model etc you might hardly ever need higher commander ratings anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
I only have 2 corp finns and 2 finn armies i think.

Enough for 24 divisions or 16 if broken down to regiments. With all the Finnish withdrawals the Finnish armies will be more German than Finnish!

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
Also do u keep your best inf, mech leaders at corp and as command goes up do you focus more on morale, admin and initiative?


Best inf/mech, admin and init at first level, all the higher levels morale is more important. Reality is for the higher leaders the range penalty will mean their admin/init/inf.mech scores do not really make much difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
Like I feel like Manstein is a waste being a Panzer Group Leader. I still have very good leaders above them, but I feel u want the best at Corp.

Yes - your best should be in your corps and only Field Marshals cannot head corps

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
I also keep my army 5 hexes to battles that are very important.

In that case keep them 1 hex away from the battle and they will have no penalty. If they are 2-3 hexes away they will have one penalty to their ratings, 4-5 hexes away two penalties and so on. Bottom line if the battle is important the very best is one hex away. Corps HQs on the other hand can be five hexes away and no difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717
How much of a hit do u take say at -1 at corp

Do you mean over the command capacity. In general this is always very bad ... here is an explanation of why from elsewhere

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Although the exact formulas are complicated for most of the time you can approximate adding command points to be just like subtracting points from a command leadership rating. So adding a division (2 command points) over the command limit is like turning a rating six commander into a ratings four commander. The formula for calculating whether a ratings check is passed is complicated with many modifiers. But at its simplest it is saying each point of ratings will give you a 10% chance of passing a ratings check at first level (Soviet army?) and 5% at the second level (Soviet front).

Say you have a Soviet front with 30 divisions each with 10 ratings a turn checked at front level with a commander with ratings of 6 - then you have 300 ratings a turn checked with a probability of 30% of passing (6*5%) - or on average passing 90. If you add just one division over the limit then you 310 ratings checks a turn checked with a probability of 20% of passing ( (6-2)*5% ) - or an average passing 62. That is not just losing some of the ten checks on that one division you have just added - but many more losses on ALL of the divisions that are in the Front. That is just from adding one more division. If you add in a whole armies worth of divisions and you are effectively making the ratings of the Front command pointless. They then would have to rely on the ratings checks of STAVKA - but checks from STAVKA would be worth even less because it is even further up the command scale.

So the choice is a second level ratings check with STAVKA, or a second level ratings check with an overloaded front (effectively zero) followed by a third level ratings check with STAVKA (which is worth less than if it was second level)



Thanks a lot bro!! Very helpful

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 5
RE: Command Points Germans - 1/7/2020 8:12:06 PM   
Laits


Posts: 57
Joined: 11/1/2019
Status: offline
Thanks for the advice! That reminds me one question concerning the command capacité of the Army group south. Reassigning the RU armies is very expensive. Do you think it worth the cost (36 AP if I do not make a mistake) ?

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Post #: 6
RE: Command Points Germans - 1/7/2020 8:55:40 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: online
My honest answer is no for the following reasons

-When army group south splits you can do it for free then anyway
-Points are better spent on sorting out the lower level commands - corps and armies internally - and then giving them the best leaders . And when not on that you may find spending them on HQ build ups much more useful
-Army group ratings are severely affected by range penalties - the admin/init/nech/inf ratings will be heavily penalised simply by how far the HQ is from most of their units anyway, so adding command overcapacity penalties will not make much difference then. The only rating to not have a range penalty - morale - also does not get a command penalty. So if you can put a good morale leader in AGS it actually becomes a benefit to have many more units under them as they can use their high morale rating successfully much more often
-You can much more cheaply reassign all the divisions out of one Rumanian armies and leave it empty (zero command points) then it costs to reassign the army HQ.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 1/7/2020 8:56:44 PM >


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(in reply to Laits)
Post #: 7
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