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RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/4/2020 12:35:33 PM   
John B.


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I haven't discussed the Hiei TF because hey, it's only a BB. But it become relevant given the idea that the lack of fuel slowed down the CV TFs. Here is the Hiei TF about to leave Yokahama and the fuel bunkers are full.




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RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/4/2020 12:40:40 PM   
John B.


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And the Hiei TF only moved 4 hexes and it stopped as well and has the green patrol zone show up for just about a second before it reverts to the yellow TF destination screen. Note that this TF was set at a 6 reaction range and the TF commander has a 67 naval and 75 aggression rating.

The two CV TFs and the Hiei each stopped both times we ran the turn and they are the only TFs that have this brief patrol zone show up before they revert to the yellow TF path. All other TFs leaving Tokyo and Yokohama moved normally.




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Post #: 32
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/4/2020 12:56:51 PM   
Alfred

 

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Keep going around in circles, after all there are plenty of peo9ple on the forum who take great delight in claiming I don't know what I'm talking.

1.  Refuelling at sea does not operate how you think it does.  But then what do I know apparently.

2.  The auto refuelling at sea thresholds are not what you think they are.  But then what do I know apparently.

3.  You keep looking at irrelevant metrics.  But then what do I know apparently.


The CLAAs are the primary problem.  There can be other minor factors at play but they would not enter into the picture if the CLAAs were fully bunkered.  Why do you think michaelm75au and Don Bowen always insisted on a saved file?  Because the players never provide all the details.

Alfred

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Post #: 33
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/4/2020 2:15:27 PM   
John B.


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Alfred, I appear to have hurt your feelings and I truly apologize if I did!

Obviously I can't dissect the code so I can't either prove or disprove what you say and I'm not arguing with you, I'm merely pointing out evidence that does not fit with your hypothesis.

1. Each ship in the Hiei TF was fully fueled, it had no CLAAs, and had the same problem.

2. The three TFs that had the problem all have the green patrol zone briefly show up before they show the yellow TF path. No other TF demonstrates that little quirk and AFIK I have not seen it before.

3. The exact same thing happened both times the turn was run which does not fit with typical random nature of events in this game. It could fit, of course, assuming the die rolls were the same, but certainly an indication that something else is at work.

It might very well be a refueling problem and there is some other explanation as to why the fully fuled Hiei TF behaved the same way, or, it might not. :)

As always, I really appreciate your input and the input of everyone else.


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Post #: 34
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/4/2020 6:46:25 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

Ah ha! I got a picture of the issue I was talking about. Here you can see that I've put the cursor over the CV TF in question. When I click on the TF the following sequence happens:

1. As you can see in this first picture, when I click on the TF it briefly shows a green patrol zone for the TF.

Then. . .




Sometimes the first routing displayed for a hex is not the selected TF, but one of the other TFs in the hex. Did you have other TFs set to patrol those two hexes or have waypoints set in them? The green hex border might not have anything to do with the CV TF problem.

I think one CLAA commander has a date with Tokyo Rose and the other one has a date with WITP's Annie, so they are dragging their feet on staying at sea!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 35
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/5/2020 12:46:31 AM   
John B.


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Lol, I think you're right. A picture of Tokyo Rose imprisoned by her love for Captain Muruyama of the CLAA Abukuma. http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/1949_tokyo_rose_convicted_treason

There is an ASW patrol in that hex that is set to patrol those two hexes. But, the green patrol zone I show you shows up when I click on the Carrier TF is there for less than a second and without me clicking on anything the CV TF info. screen shows up. When I close the CV TF screen is when the yellow TF path appears. The exact same thing happens with the Hiei TF. But not for the DD TF that is in a third hex (and did not have its movement halted).

When I click on the ASW TF in that hex it show the green patrol zone, the ASW TF info. screen appears and when I close that the green patrol zone is still there. My current theory is that the TFs movement got tangled up some how with the ASW TFs.

So, Scott and I are going to try an experiment. I redid my turn and the only things I changed were to move the ASW TFs out of the way and I took the two CV TFs off of follow targeted them on the same hex independently. Scott will redo his turn as best he can and then we'll see. If it's refueling my ships should be stuck in the same hexes and we'll keep going on from there.

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Post #: 36
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/5/2020 6:22:59 AM   
BBfanboy


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I get those kind of path display anomalies all the time when I have follow/meet merge commands or waypoints with refueling set. I often have ships coming from CT through the strait of Malacca on their way to the South China Sea. I set them to refuel at Medan and suddenly their entry point onto the map changes as plotted by the yellow hex path. When the TF does get on map I cannot see the TF path when I select the hex but I can when I select the TF. That usually means having to move the TF info screen to see the part of the path under it. And if I select "Return same route" with the waypoint/refueling order set, I get no path showing at all.

Another anomaly is getting double plots when I select a hex with two TFs in it by clicking on one of the TFs (usually the higher numbered one). The game is programmed to display the first TF first but if you click on the second one directly it will show one TF screen but both plots.

So with all the follow commands going on and refueling at sea in the background, and an ASW plot in the same area you are going to with your CVs, I can see the game not sure what to display.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 37
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/5/2020 11:45:07 AM   
Trugrit


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I thought I would add some documentation on refueling in the game.

For new players Don Bowen was the naval team programmer.

Don Bowen post #465:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1647369

Don Bowen post #24:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2263772

Don Bowen post #399:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2207994

Don Bowen post #4:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2277883


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Post #: 38
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/5/2020 2:07:18 PM   
John B.


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Truegrit, thanks for posting those links. It's very interesting. To me it makes sense that individual ship and TF commanders may be willing to overlook our fondest desires and refuel if they're being sent out on a mission where they will run out of fuel. We'll see if that's the issue here when Scott and I do the turn.

BBFanboy, I have not seen this anomaly before but then, of course, I have not been looking until now. Given your experience it would appear to be normal for the anomaly to appear for the CV TFs since one was set to follow the other but the Hiei TF has it as well and it's not folloing, being followed, or refueling.

The reason I did not refuel my ships in the CV TFs before they left port was that I did not expect them to come back. Perhaps the pixels have outsmarted me. :)

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Post #: 39
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/6/2020 12:49:45 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

Truegrit, thanks for posting those links. It's very interesting. To me it makes sense that individual ship and TF commanders may be willing to overlook our fondest desires and refuel if they're being sent out on a mission where they will run out of fuel. We'll see if that's the issue here when Scott and I do the turn.

BBFanboy, I have not seen this anomaly before but then, of course, I have not been looking until now. Given your experience it would appear to be normal for the anomaly to appear for the CV TFs since one was set to follow the other but the Hiei TF has it as well and it's not folloing, being followed, or refueling.

The reason I did not refuel my ships in the CV TFs before they left port was that I did not expect them to come back. Perhaps the pixels have outsmarted me. :)

OMG - the computer has become self-aware and refuses your direction to send its pixels on a suicide mission! Is your Internet Service Provider called "Skynet" by any chance?

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 40
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/8/2020 10:42:04 PM   
John B.


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Lol, when I post my AARs against the computer in the Strategic Command section I call it Allies vs. Skynet.

When Scott and I redid the turn a couple of times I wonder if the pixels started to feel like Bill Murray waking up in Groundhog day.

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Post #: 41
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/8/2020 10:44:13 PM   
John B.


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So Scott and I redid the turn a couple of times leaving everything basically the same and the CVs continued to stay two hexes away from Tokyo. Then, last night, we redid the turn again except this time I (a) took the ASW patrol zones away from the CV TF path and (b) took the on CV TF off of follow. The result was that all three CV TFs wound up exactly where there were supposed to be!




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Post #: 42
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/8/2020 10:47:36 PM   
John B.


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As you can see, the CLAAs were not refueled and now are in the orange zone. I really have to think that based on this it was not a refueling issue but rather some sort of glitch. I can't show it in the code of course, but, without the ASW patrol zones both CV TFs moved as one would expect and so did the Hiei BB TF and the low fuel on the CLAAs did not have any effect.

I know some people are sensitive to the term "bug" when it comes to the game, but this is a strong indication of some kind of anomaly. The lesson for the IJN is to never have ASW TFs. (I am kidding of course).




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Post #: 43
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/8/2020 11:22:19 PM   
BBfanboy


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Right, so the Emperor's cousin's son was in charge of the ASW TF and he forbade the carriers to go through lest it mess up his sonar reception?

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 44
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/9/2020 12:05:00 AM   
John B.


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It's the only logical explanation! :)

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Post #: 45
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/9/2020 9:25:50 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.
I can't show it in the code of course, but, without the ASW patrol zones both CV TFs moved as one would expect and so did the Hiei BB TF and the low fuel on the CLAAs did not have any effect.

You also said earlier you took the other CV TF off of follow

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Post #: 46
RE: Ship movement into battle - 1/9/2020 1:37:36 PM   
John B.


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Yes, I did that as well. I don't know if that would have freed up the Hiei TF as well, but who knows!

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Post #: 47
RE: Ship movement into battle - 6/20/2020 1:51:40 PM   
Dili

 

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Something resembling this happened to me recently , i had no solution except resetting follow on Curiously i also had 2 TF's following the carrier TF.

Initially i had a 1 cruiser TF following the carrier TF, no issues, then in a turn i added a second cruiser TF, all were okay with fuel. But then the carrier TF instead of moving the typical mission speed hexes only moved 2 hexes. There was no logical explanation.

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Post #: 48
RE: Ship movement into battle - 6/20/2020 2:33:45 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Something resembling this happened to me recently , i had no solution except resetting follow on Curiously i also had 2 TF's following the carrier TF.

Initially i had a 1 cruiser TF following the carrier TF, no issues, then in a turn i added a second cruiser TF, all were okay with fuel. But then the carrier TF instead of moving the typical mission speed hexes only moved 2 hexes. There was no logical explanation.

If any ship in any of the TFs needed fuel, all would be held up waiting for that to happen. Check fuel states of each ship before and after the turn.

Otherwise, if you set one cruiser TF to follow the Carriers and then set the other cruiser TF to follow the first one, you have a daisy chain and the AI can get confused about how to process the follow commands. This seems to happen when TF numbers are not in sequence, because the AI executes the movement phase in sequence by TF # but the follow commands may be non-sequential by TF#, creating an unsolvable loop. But having both cruiser TFs follow the Carrier TF should work.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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