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Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer

 
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Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 12/24/2019 7:16:37 AM   
Courtenay


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Since no one should be reading both Ronnie's and Composer's threads on their game and making comments, I have created this thread for comments that everyone can read.

Please do not make comments about anybody's plans or about possible future events in this thread.

Ronnie said that both sides are doing the die rolls without using a dice server, and that he is rolling them manually. Rolling dice manually has one great advantage: When they roll horribly, you can throw them across the room to relieve your frustrations. If one is getting dice results from your computer, this won't work, as throwing your computer across the room is probably not advised.

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 12/24/2019 9:37:12 AM   
warspite1


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Don't get me wrong, it's great that they are sufficiently comfortable with each other to take that route but I must say from a personal perspective, I would never go down that route again. And that is regardless of opponent.

I've been in a position where I rolled a great number on a really important attack where only a great number will do.... and I just hate the thought that people will (human nature being what it is) wonder if that was genuine. It totally takes the gloss off what should be one of those great MWIF moments.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 2
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 12/24/2019 10:12:14 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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I have to comment this dice thing. I have played with and without dice roller. With dice roller server used when I for example shoot down many enemy planes I feel free to make fun of enemy pilots without worrying will someone think how did I roll that well. I want to use it to make me feel good rolling really well, just like Warspite1 said.

I will follow you guys and learn. And I always support the one who is attacking

_____________________________

If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.

-Murphy's war law

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Post #: 3
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 12/24/2019 12:08:25 PM   
rkr1958


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Joined: 5/21/2009
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Thanks guys! Following communications just sent (via WhatsApp) to my opponent.

[ax] Looks like our game has generated a bit of interest and has resulted in increase activity on the forum. Courtenay has open a global comments thread on our AAR, which I think is great.

[ax] One issue raised in that thread is using a dice rolling service.

[ax] I was surprised to see how intensely folks felt about using such a service even in a friendly game as ours. Which got me thinking ... and that's usually a bad thing. :)

[ax] Do you wish for us to use a dice rolling service?

[ax] I'm really good using such a service if it makes you feel more comfortable.

[ax] I've good a few errands to run this morning and will get to my impulse by late morning.

[ax] By the way and as a bit of a teaser. :)

[ax] Italy will declare war on Great Britain but not France. :)

[ax]

[ax]

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Ronnie

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 12/24/2019 12:14:55 PM   
composer99


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Considering some of the crazy dice results I've seen in both tabletop WiF, WiF on Vassal, and MWiF, I can't say I'm too chuffed about anyone rolling dice physically or using the game's built-in die rolling. (I'm using the game's built-in dice rolling, for the record.)

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~ Composer99

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 12/31/2019 12:54:46 AM   
composer99


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Well, one way to not have to worry about your good luck is when your opponent rolls it for you. In Allied impulse 6 the Italians got a 1-10 split in a naval combat in the Eastern Med and the Germans got a 3-10 split in the North Atlantic, all by my hand (so to speak).

Seems the Royal Navy hasn't quite cottoned on to being at war.

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 12/31/2019 2:19:00 PM   
Courtenay


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quote:

[ax] I've got to take my dogs out. But the 3rd and final naval combat is 3 subs (2,1, 0) vs 10 CP's in the North Atlantic. I saved the best for last and I'm building the tension as we wait.

[al] If by "take the dogs out" you mean "cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war", I total- oh, no you actually mean "take the dogs out".

When I read this in Ronnie's AAR. I found it appropriate to stop reading and do something else for a while.

_____________________________

I thought I knew how to play this game....

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Post #: 7
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 12/31/2019 11:21:14 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

quote:

[ax] I've got to take my dogs out. But the 3rd and final naval combat is 3 subs (2,1, 0) vs 10 CP's in the North Atlantic. I saved the best for last and I'm building the tension as we wait.

[al] If by "take the dogs out" you mean "cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war", I total- oh, no you actually mean "take the dogs out".

When I read this in Ronnie's AAR. I found it appropriate to stop reading and do something else for a while.
Here are my dogs of war. Scary aren't they!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 12/31/2019 11:25:33 PM >


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Ronnie

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/1/2020 12:13:23 AM   
Courtenay


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They terrify me. That much cuteness has to be lethal.

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I thought I knew how to play this game....

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Post #: 9
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/1/2020 12:27:57 AM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

They terrify me. That much cuteness has to be lethal.
The one facing the camera on the left is Susie. We got her when our son was in Kindergarten. He's now a freshman at Auburn. The one facing the camera on the right is Cally. We got her when he was in the 7th grade on the Friday before the famous "Kick-6" game between Auburn and Alabama.

I must confess that I'm not a big Charles de Gaulle fan. But I do love the quote below attributed to him.




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< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 1/1/2020 2:22:10 PM >


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Ronnie

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/1/2020 12:31:19 AM   
rkr1958


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Though it's still 4 1/2 hours from midnight from where I am, I wanted to wish everyone ...




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Ronnie

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Post #: 11
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/1/2020 10:27:16 PM   
Courtenay


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Reading Ronnie's report, the US picked Occupy Greenland & Iceland and Chinese build aircraft.

I find that curious, as I almost never pick those two early. The Chinese don't particularly want to build aircraft this early in the game, and I really am not too worried about German invasions of Greenland or Iceland, so I am happy to put off that option as well. The Allies have no idea at this point whether they will get too much tension in the tension pools or too little (these are the only alternatives; just right doesn't happen, at least for me. ), and so I like to keep those two options in reserve if I need tension.

There are a few important options that the US always wants to take on the road to Gear-up and War Appropriations; the rest of the options I take only if I need to increase tension. These two certainly fall into the "take to increase tension" category.

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/2/2020 12:27:22 AM   
composer99


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Well, I do like to try to suck the 1939 markers, which are on average higher value, into tension earlier, before the 1940 stuff starts fouling up the pool.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/2/2020 12:31:39 AM >


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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/2/2020 12:53:35 AM   
composer99


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September/October 1939

Production

Since this stuff is "public knowledge", I'ma posting the production here.

With a shortfall of convoy points in the North Atlantic, the CW ended up saving a lot of oil, as shown in the CW finalised production form.

Also shown are turn-by-turn reinforcements and a screen capture of the spreadsheet where I track each major power's production, along with the Allied production advantage, both cumulative and turn-by-turn.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/2/2020 12:55:09 AM >


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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/2/2020 11:51:53 PM   
Courtenay


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I am very confused by one unit in that picture: The Copenhagen MIL. When did Denmark get declared war on?

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Post #: 15
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/3/2020 12:42:45 AM   
composer99


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Early on - second Axis impulse (impulse #3 on the turn track).

Edit to add: Of course, it won't last. That screen capture came from before the conquest phase.

< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/3/2020 12:43:28 AM >


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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/5/2020 3:17:32 PM   
composer99


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So I must report that one of the grand old dames of the Royal Navy, HMS Warspite, went down around Christmastide fighting the Regia Marina in Egyptian waters. I like to think she died doing what she loved, laying waste to her enemies. Not only did she sink an Italian cruiser and severely damage two others, but so fierce was her onslaught and that of her sisters that she frightened off the RM forces in the Eastern Med.

What better way for a warship to go down, than to go down fighting?

_____________________________

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/11/2020 9:07:21 PM   
composer99


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First impulse of March/April 1940, and Ronnie's dice decided they wanted to play the Commonwealth. The RN is 2 for 2 on chasing subs out of the Atlantic and, in an air battle in progress over Rotterdam as of this writing, has just rolled a 20.

Edit to add: The Germans managed to see off the RAF over Rotterdam (air combat roll of 14 aborts the Spitfires), but then the Stuka rolled 6 and 8 on its ground strikes, and the Bf-109s flying as bombers rolled 5,5 (both results that would have hit had they been rolled by the Stuka).

< Message edited by composer99 -- 1/11/2020 9:17:24 PM >


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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/11/2020 11:02:38 PM   
brian brian

 

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I wanted to comment on something I read in your chat logs:

"[al] Medals all around for the crew of Norfolk."

This was after an inconclusive round of Axis attempts to use SUBs vs. Convoy Points in the North Atlantic.

I think as the decades roll along and WWII becomes ever more mysterious for all but the really, really interested, there is one thing in World in Flames that just kind of rots the brains of players who haven't read much on this subject:

HEAVY CRUISERS WERE NOT ASW PLATFORMS!

If the HMS Norfolk found itself on patrol in the North Atlantic in the winter of 1940, it would be doing so via a steady series of high-speed zig zag plots as it tried to perform it's job - looking for undetected German surface raiders - while it tried to avoid German U-Boats.

The Norfolk was one CA selected for routine patrol work off Norway and assisted HMS Suffolk in shadowing the Bismarck as it made for the Denmark Strait.

With the exception of troop convoys and when German surface raiders were known to be in the Atlantic, Heavy Cruisers (and Light), did not sail along with convoys to battle U-Boats. Cruisers were quite vulnerable to enemy submarines and many were lost, on both sides, to subs.

In World in Flames, CAs and CLs are given ASW points as a straight playability fudge so that attritional submarine vs merchant battles can use the same combat resolution systems as all other naval battles.

Recently, on another website I read some comments on this from a key figure in the player community who helped develop Collector's Edition rules. He said that if Axis SUB pressure in the Atlantic ends up lessening Royal Navy fleet commitment in the Pacific, then the game is doing its job better now. That is totally preposterous - the U-Boat war was won by ships smaller than the ones we have on WiF counters. The course of the Battle of the Atlantic had little to do with what the RN could send beyond the Mediterranean, as that was determined by German and Italian surface threats, not their total Submarine forces. Heavy combat ships stayed away from merchant shipping unless absolutely necessary, as off Norway where the Kriegsmarine heavy units were lurking. HMS Edinburgh and another CL (Fiji?) payed the ultimate price on that duty.

Sometimes, what we call "SCS" counters had to stay in port as all their potential destroyer escorts were busy on convoy duty. Note those 2 words - "Destroyer Escorts." What were the DDs supposed to escort? That's right, they served as anti-submarine protection for Cruisers, Battleships, and Carriers - they needed escorts - they were NOT escorts.

The ASW vs SUB system in World in Flames makes for a simple playable 'battle'. But it is obtuse sausage making of a high degree. Please don't forget that when playing World in Flames.

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/11/2020 11:36:11 PM   
markb50k

 

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I’ve always considered ship counters to represent a capital ships with assumed destroyer escorts. Congrats may go to the Norfolk but really it should be to those brave DD and DE crews

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/12/2020 12:51:21 AM   
composer99


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

soapbox...





Every single WW2 game makes enormous compromises with respect to historical accuracy for the sake of such factors as playability, simplicity, victory conditions, etc. etc. etc.

I'm happy to lean into those compromises for the sake of having fun. If that means almost always leaving out "destroyer escorts assigned to capital ships but subsumed into their counters for the sake of ease of play and the legacy of printing costs" whenever referring to an individual ship in the game, then so be it.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and enjoy my tasty "obtuse sausage".

_____________________________

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/12/2020 1:55:44 AM   
brian brian

 

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Yeah, it remains a great game. But I just think this has to be said once in a while. Anyone on this site knows lots about WWII, that is a given. But unless you take a specific interest in the Battle of the Atlantic, the techniques used to play the game really twist perception of this part of the war. All games must compromise/summarize details to simulate history, and WiF does a remarkably good job of that, except in this particular area.

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Post #: 22
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/12/2020 2:10:26 AM   
rkr1958


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Joined: 5/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Yeah, it remains a great game. But I just think this has to be said once in a while. Anyone on this site knows lots about WWII, that is a given. But unless you take a specific interest in the Battle of the Atlantic, the techniques used to play the game really twist perception of this part of the war. All games must compromise/summarize details to simulate history, and WiF does a remarkably good job of that, except in this particular area.

I agree, but I must admit I've often sent BB's out on ASW duty which in real life would have be suicidal. In CE, where playing with CLIF is now pretty much standard and under which BB's have now ASW, this fixes this one heresy.

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Ronnie

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RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/12/2020 12:09:33 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I wanted to comment on something I read in your chat logs:

"[al] Medals all around for the crew of Norfolk."

This was after an inconclusive round of Axis attempts to use SUBs vs. Convoy Points in the North Atlantic.

I think as the decades roll along and WWII becomes ever more mysterious for all but the really, really interested, there is one thing in World in Flames that just kind of rots the brains of players who haven't read much on this subject:

HEAVY CRUISERS WERE NOT ASW PLATFORMS!

If the HMS Norfolk found itself on patrol in the North Atlantic in the winter of 1940, it would be doing so via a steady series of high-speed zig zag plots as it tried to perform it's job - looking for undetected German surface raiders - while it tried to avoid German U-Boats.

The Norfolk was one CA selected for routine patrol work off Norway and assisted HMS Suffolk in shadowing the Bismarck as it made for the Denmark Strait.

With the exception of troop convoys and when German surface raiders were known to be in the Atlantic, Heavy Cruisers (and Light), did not sail along with convoys to battle U-Boats. Cruisers were quite vulnerable to enemy submarines and many were lost, on both sides, to subs.

In World in Flames, CAs and CLs are given ASW points as a straight playability fudge so that attritional submarine vs merchant battles can use the same combat resolution systems as all other naval battles.

Recently, on another website I read some comments on this from a key figure in the player community who helped develop Collector's Edition rules. He said that if Axis SUB pressure in the Atlantic ends up lessening Royal Navy fleet commitment in the Pacific, then the game is doing its job better now. That is totally preposterous - the U-Boat war was won by ships smaller than the ones we have on WiF counters. The course of the Battle of the Atlantic had little to do with what the RN could send beyond the Mediterranean, as that was determined by German and Italian surface threats, not their total Submarine forces. Heavy combat ships stayed away from merchant shipping unless absolutely necessary, as off Norway where the Kriegsmarine heavy units were lurking. HMS Edinburgh and another CL (Fiji?) payed the ultimate price on that duty.

Sometimes, what we call "SCS" counters had to stay in port as all their potential destroyer escorts were busy on convoy duty. Note those 2 words - "Destroyer Escorts." What were the DDs supposed to escort? That's right, they served as anti-submarine protection for Cruisers, Battleships, and Carriers - they needed escorts - they were NOT escorts.

The ASW vs SUB system in World in Flames makes for a simple playable 'battle'. But it is obtuse sausage making of a high degree. Please don't forget that when playing World in Flames.


You are right, when looking at the Battle of the Atlantic. However, in the coastal waters of the Med, the cruisers were necessary to be included as convoy escorts for protection against the Italian navy and to increase the anti aircraft fire.

That's why I hope that the optional rules for ASW escorts will be included in the game in the future.

_____________________________

Peter

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Post #: 24
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/13/2020 2:48:59 PM   
TeaLeaf


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quote:

All games must compromise/summarize details to simulate history, and WiF does a remarkably good job of that, except in this particular area.

Besides this BotA, there are more game elements in WiF where historical simulation has been compromised for increased game balance.

Production for example.
Axis production in WiF is a quite a bit stronger than historically justified.
If we take allied production in WiF as benchmark, WiF Axis production should be about 18% lower up until '44, roughly 16BP every month.
(One of the reasons why I really like to play with the food in flames optional, because then the simulation of Allied production versus Axis production becomes 2% more accurate .)
If war production in WiF needs a 100% simulation After '44, the Allies probably need a total of >300BP...

Or the war in China.
China being a complete walkover (if Japan wants to have it and has a bit of luck with the dice), is ofc nowhere near an accurate simulation of historical possibilities. It's a rather big compromise in favor of game balance.

Or the abscence of the supply problems the Germans faced in Russia, keeping all their troops in fighting order...

Long story short: I'd rate WiF a 50% simulation, 50% game (I'd rate Axis and Allies, for example, 10% simulation 90% game).
I really love to play (M)WiF, but I do realise every "what if" scenario we WiF players come up with is probably only 50% accurate . Even less in the future if the rules keep trending more towards game balance.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 25
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/14/2020 2:59:04 AM   
brian brian

 

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Just wanted to note that my comment on Sir 99’s comment wasn’t really about his comment at all, which was just a normal live game comment.

As for production comps, keep in mind that the game system gives the Allies certain things for free. One is USA logistical shipping - read recently that the USA built something like 180 Convoy Points in the war. All of those ships sailed with cargo, too. But in WiF, the > 10,000,000 American personnel outside of North America in 1945 can all be fed and armed with just a dozen or so convoy points, that are all theoretically moving natural resources at the same time.

Another free item is the ASW built into certain counters.

Another item to consider is all the Light Cruisers - Italy put a good amount of steel production into those. WiF players do not. Italy is usually held up as an example of Axis ‘over production’ in WiF.

Meanwhile, Germany built 13,000 Me-109s in 1944. Does anyone really want to play with 26 German FTR2 counters on the map in 1944, plus another 14 Fw190s?

This is why the scale of the counters in the game is deliberately vague. The point of the design is to experience the basic decision making on each side and use only some of the nitty gritty tactical and operational details. Otherwise the Germans would get those 26 Me-109 counters but they would all suffer from low factors due to their oil crunch / pilot training death spiral as they faced 80 or whatever P-51 counters.

I often think the logistics rules are pretty generous, but logistics meant different things to the different powers. The Germans could get more done on a shoe-string than other armies in the war; some powers basic lack of concern for their soldiers lives (sadly) gave them a different advantage over a well supplied opponent ... until the scales tipped too far and your counter pays the flipped, out-of-supply penalty. A recently isolated American unit might still have better supplies on hand than a Japanese unit attacking it while still in contact with its own understaffed logistical tail.

Overall, the simulation is the command decisions. Though I do always hope the realism in China could improve, that is almost as an intractable problem to simulate as the Japanese high command schism between IJA & IJN. The result is - Action Limits.


This game is rolling along nicely. PBEM + live chat is the way to play WiF remotely.

< Message edited by brian brian -- 1/14/2020 12:53:57 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/14/2020 11:33:34 AM   
TeaLeaf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
(...)
This game is rolling along nicely. PBEM + live chat is the way to play WiF remotely.


Second that .
As long as the players don't mind all the comments hehheh .

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Post #: 27
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/15/2020 5:58:32 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

So I must report that one of the grand old dames of the Royal Navy, HMS Warspite, went down around Christmastide fighting the Regia Marina in Egyptian waters.

warspite1

[coughing and spluttering] Don't be ridiculous. How is that even remotely possible?!?! Either you don't understand the rules or the game is borked. I demand a recount! call the Militia! Turn the machines back on, turn the machines back on!!.....


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 28
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/15/2020 3:21:55 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

So I must report that one of the grand old dames of the Royal Navy, HMS Warspite, went down around Christmastide fighting the Regia Marina in Egyptian waters.

warspite1

[coughing and spluttering] Don't be ridiculous. How is that even remotely possible?!?! Either you don't understand the rules or the game is borked. I demand a recount! call the Militia! Turn the machines back on, turn the machines back on!!.....



Trading Places, wasn't it for the last quote...

_____________________________

Peter

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Post #: 29
RE: Global comments on Ronnie versus Composer - 1/16/2020 4:25:14 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

So I must report that one of the grand old dames of the Royal Navy, HMS Warspite, went down around Christmastide fighting the Regia Marina in Egyptian waters.

warspite1

[coughing and spluttering] Don't be ridiculous. How is that even remotely possible?!?! Either you don't understand the rules or the game is borked. I demand a recount! call the Militia! Turn the machines back on, turn the machines back on!!.....



Trading Places, wasn't it for the last quote...
warspite1

Yes indeed!

Official #2: [Randolph Duke has just collapsed with shock] Mortimer, your brother is not well. We better call an ambulance.

Mortimer Duke: F*** him! Now, you listen to me! I want trading reopened right now. Get those brokers back in here! Turn those machines back on!

[shouts - it echoes pathetically throughout the trading hall]

Mortimer Duke: Turn those machines back on!



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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