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Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/20/2019 9:23:48 AM   
battlevonwar


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I dug into both items to calculate value. On turn say for instance the Axis AI sunk 10 Transports worth of goods across the Atlantic. Does this equal Iron and Oil resources bound for England? Is it 50/50 on each resource or random? With the huge investment in Submarines I am thinking 10 per turn not very effective and this was 1942. Anyone pursued this tactic to any success. I doubt anyone would aggressively pursue this tactic considering the cost for the Axis?
Similarly I tried bombing Germany and I totally dunked 2 Synthetic Oil Plants till there was nothing left of them. Doing nearly 6-8 damage per turn. Does this remove that oil from the hands of the Germans? This actually seems viable for the cost. I lost a HUGE number of Strategic Bombers in the process to Fighters/AA so you have to calculate if you can cripple Germany's oil by 20% or so you better not have to pay up 25% of your production to do it right? Anyone found success in this. Seems much more viable than The Battle of the Atlantic.
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/20/2019 9:32:32 AM   
AlbertN

 

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Strategic bombing was overpowered in previous patch as it was pratically non counterable.

Now there are flaks and the Brits do not start with the pratically unlimited range strategic bomber in '39.

I'd say in general the tradeoff of 'use british production points to save soviet production points' is a tradeoff (less fuel, less panzer fighting in the east in attack at least). The point of strategic bombing is that it is cumulative. So if you bring down to 0 a location in one turn with 5-6 attacks, it recovers 1 or 2 points the next turn, you'll just need 1 or 2 attacks to keep it down at 0, and the rest of your bombers start to hit a new location.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/20/2019 1:55:59 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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In the new v4 scenarios the UK doesn't have a strat bomber and the Axis start with more AA on their cities.

As for the sub war... it was beaten by 1942 by the Allies. Well I should say the UK. The USA was stubborn and didnt listen until they took an ass whooping. Sub warfare later in the war is more about the threat of sub warfare forcing the Allied player to keep on his toes. They have to expend a lot more production protecting their lines just from the threat of attack. If you disband all your subs they don't have to buy MMs or Escorts.

I might make an adjustment to submarine cost for the Germans this beta patch. I have to test some things.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/20/2019 2:15:11 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Suggesting also to review how CV fights vs submarines, as presently the UK CVs can just go sub hunts with carrier strikes since the start.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/20/2019 3:01:53 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Axis should be putting all subs in raider mode and in the lowest possible recon level. They will rarely get spotted.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/20/2019 3:21:15 PM   
tyronec


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Am not persuaded that even under the present patch that the Strategic war is on for Axis.

One factor is Oil. Subs use oil, Allies can counter with escorts which don't use oil; and even if they do use the surface fleet the Allies have a glut of oil so they can afford it. Have not played it out but Axis probably need a 9 stack of subs to have much effect and that much oil is going to effect Barbarossa.

The second factor is production. Axis need all their production in '39 and '40 to build combat units for '41. Build 10+ subs, which is probably what you need to keep a 9 stack at sea, and the army takes quite a hit.

So I think Axis can only start building for the sub war in '41 at the earliest. By the time they are having much impact the game has already been won or lost in Russia. And if it is tight in Russia then that production will be needed elsewhere.

The other strategy is to try and take out the UK before Russia, for which subs would be a help. But am not sure if this is viable with the Soviet auto-entry in '42.

Of course this is all theory, would be interesting to see if someone can make a go of it in an HvH game.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/20/2019 3:52:10 PM   
AlbertN

 

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In general I agree with Tyronec there.

It is a very common problem of many strategy games that Axis cannot devote any production to ships in general (and the Allies in turn can pratically do the same).
Ultimately some games have sorted it by 'forcing' production in some sectors (read: you have shipyards, you can produce which ships you want but these shipyard works persistently, etc, to just give more production to anyone with full freedom in how to invest it, it will just mean 'more' of what is deemed useful)

Presently I don't touch the navy with a long pole, be either surface or subs.
I hardly tech them as planes (as it should be) minces them and the impact in the game here is quite minimal in the ocean. There is pratically no way Axis raiders, surface or not, can intercept convoys and the like from the USA (troops included - which is something cool of WiF for instance).

As Axis your fleet is pratically redundant.
The Allies will use it, but mostly under the air umbrella of their fighters to shrink to nothingness any Axis port oversea.

But it's very hard to capture the naval game in general in WW2 games. (Then again I am extremely happy with WiF one that barring rare specific situation is solid). But even in WiF, the Battle for Atlantic is often non existant. (Same reason as above, it is better a sub in the Atlantic or an extra INF corp in Russia? The INF!)

But even if BfA would work, then fat chances are that the Soviets will be going rampage in '42 due to a depowered Wermacth.

Prolly the system whole should have been abstracted (as other games do), and submarines are like escorts. To be assigned to convoy routes offensively and then some math is done comparing subs vs escort and quantity of merchant marine used; and some variables that are tech and luck based.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/20/2019 4:17:15 PM   
tyronec


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It is a difficult area for the game.
I do think the combat systems work well, from my limited amount of play.
Just to get the sub war to be more active is going to take adjustments production and the naval war, if it is at all possible.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/20/2019 5:04:42 PM   
Uxbridge


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In reality it was not only about weaponry and military supplies, but foodstocks for the British population. Since the British morale is limitless, that can't be touched. Otherwise morale could have been an additional worry for mr Churchill.

I'm merely speculating now, but suppose the Britsih would need to have a fixed numbers of convoys running at all time. Negligence to maintain that number, will give a hit on logistics and population each turn; this to vaguely simulate starvation on the Britsih isles. This way there would be a scaring threat to the Allied player should his German counterpart ever go full tilt on uboats. But the damaging effect would only occur if this low-tide convoy figure is not met.

< Message edited by Uxbridge -- 12/20/2019 5:12:16 PM >


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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/24/2019 9:19:06 PM   
TrogusP96

 

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The Germans were able to do both and the Battle of the Atlantic wasn't won until the two convoy battles fought in April 1943. I've already quoted in another thread the impact of escort production on landing craft production. The war for the Western Allies was at sea and in the air in terms of effort and expenditures in the aggregate and over time. There would be no Overlord without success in those areas. if its abstracted then why not just play Russia Campaign. of course you can argue that it was the decisive campaign so then why not abstract or drop the Western Allies entirely if that is the determinative logic.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/25/2019 4:30:37 AM   
shri

 

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See, from the AARs i have learnt that 10-12 Panzer Corps need to be built (inc. 1-2 Mechanised).
This means 4000 Points of Production (considering 400 for a panzer).
In addition the 2 Stuka, 2 additional fighters, this means another 1200.
This itself uses 5200 Production. In addition some is used for reinforcement and for building the 2nd paratrooper etc. let's take it at 6000 (say).

This means at an average of 275 per turn or 550 per month (you start lower and go above 300 later), a full year's production is needed just for Tanks and Planes.
Further, you need at-least 5 new Infantry corps for the Soviet front this means an additional 2 months production. This totals to end of 1940.

If you lose merchant marine or escorts, you need to build to replace them, also need to buy some supply trucks (for your paratroopers to reach 100%).
This means you cannot buy any submarine in 1939 and 1940. NONE.

By 1941 the UK already is strong in escorts and soon the USA will come.

There can be alternative, ignore the whole DD-SUB game and make it off map, invest some points (if you don't you get negative NM, if you succeed you get positive NM, if too many convoys sunk then UK gets more negative NM - this negative NM should impact production).
This is the only way for a SUB game to work.

P.S.: I am a NOOB player and lots of people will walk all over me in a PBEM, but i have played such wargames for some years and all have this balancing issue.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/25/2019 2:24:29 PM   
AlbertN

 

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By how I play I cannot afford subs in general - I am not sure with the discount if it will be worth to squeeze 2 subs or so in early on but that will set short Panzers for France...

Bear in mind Axis economy ramp up as the Allied one - not by much but still - and you'll rack more production points as you conquer stuff around and gain minors.
You'll need way more than just 5 extra infantry corps for Russia.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/25/2019 3:23:36 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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A little note on uboat production
9/1939-1941 ~90 subs
1942 ~90 subs
1943 ~220 subs
1944 ~260 subs

Just to give everyone perspective. So yea its tough building subs early on. But if you want to focus on more subs you can.

source : Brute Force by John Ellis



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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/25/2019 7:11:45 PM   
LiquidSky


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I haven't bought any new naval units yet, but I do have a very important job for my German navy...

Interdict LL to Russia. They do a lot of damage suddenly, and with a few twin-engine bombers in the ports to protect them from the allied navy, do a nice job of sticking. If I use the subs in the Atlantic they will fritter away to nothing...

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/26/2019 4:02:38 AM   
shri

 

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100 Submarines by early 1941 is what i had in mind. At 5 subs to a pack, that means the Germans need to build 20 subs by 1941, they have 3, the balance 17 will cost Germany a whooping 2000 production points or 5 1941 breakthrough Panzer Corps. That's frankly a lot.

There were 57 submarines in Germany at the start of WW2 and several more under various stages of production. Granted about a third were useless for the Atlantic and only useful for the Baltic and training, we can still have 30-35 Ocean Going submarines, that is 6-7 Flottilas. We start with just 2. I guess that 6-7 starting with maybe 2 in pipeline can alone fulfill the Fleet requirements otherwise you can never do a proper SUB WAR for cost.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/26/2019 10:44:44 AM   
Meteor2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

A little note on uboat production
9/1939-1941 ~90 subs
1942 ~90 subs
1943 ~220 subs
1944 ~260 subs

Just to give everyone perspective. So yea its tough building subs early on. But if you want to focus on more subs you can.

source : Brute Force by John Ellis




Accordingly to Bodo Herzog "Deutsche U-Boote 1906 - 1966" (1990) the production numbers are (without mini-Uboats):

01.09.1939: 57

till 12/39: 7

1940: 54

1941: 202

1942: 238

1943: 290

1944: 230

1945: 93

(Milk cows and tenders included, of course).

Achivable in WarPlan?


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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/26/2019 11:59:01 AM   
tigercub


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yes those numbers are right and you have close to zip in the game!
Germany made over 1,000 Uboats during WW2!

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/26/2019 1:03:24 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2


Achivable in WarPlan?




I don't understand what you mean here?


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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/26/2019 1:14:41 PM   
AlbertN

 

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It means if a player can build as many submarines.

Production here has to mirror a degree of game balance. A player if given more production without ties will just produce more of what they think it is working and functional (and the only feat about submarines is the fact they take a low logistic value).
So if more production was given to supposedly build submarines, probably that production will be redirected into tanks and stuka factories.

Unless a game envision factories that are specialized and just produce what they're designed and tooled for (best of luck to retool a shipyard into making tanks) or some form of soft cap (ie: 25% production to ground units, 25% to air units and 25% to naval units, and the rest 25% is free to assign -- as example) no German player will build submarines if they have the even remote feeling their campaign against the Soviets will be compromised.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/26/2019 10:15:33 PM   
Meteor2


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Right.
Has anybody in a game ever produced an equivalent of 1000 Uboats during beta tests or afterwards?
With hindsight we all know, that the Eastern Front is the place, where the war will be decided.
Uboat production must have a payback to be justified.
And I have not enough game experience to give an answer.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/26/2019 10:36:37 PM   
GibClaret80

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

In the new v4 scenarios the UK doesn't have a strat bomber and the Axis start with more AA on their cities.

As for the sub war... it was beaten by 1942 by the Allies. Well I should say the UK. The USA was stubborn and didnt listen until they took an ass whooping. Sub warfare later in the war is more about the threat of sub warfare forcing the Allied player to keep on his toes. They have to expend a lot more production protecting their lines just from the threat of attack. If you disband all your subs they don't have to buy MMs or Escorts.

I might make an adjustment to submarine cost for the Germans this beta patch. I have to test some things.


The 2nd happy time for the U-boats was in 1942 up to at least May/June Alvaro

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/26/2019 11:30:02 PM   
Journier

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

Right.
Has anybody in a game ever produced an equivalent of 1000 Uboats during beta tests or afterwards?
With hindsight we all know, that the Eastern Front is the place, where the war will be decided.
Uboat production must have a payback to be justified.
And I have not enough game experience to give an answer.


what is the true meaning of a submarine group in game? number wise

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/27/2019 1:13:13 AM   
battlevonwar


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Some of the biggest threats to the British were right after Fall of France/Low Countries/Norway and entry of Italy. The British couldn't use the Suez Canal but had to go around the Cape. ~Britannica.com


A historical u-boat war doesn't seem the best option and maybe historically it wasn't the best option. The point is making it entertaining, fit in the game and be somewhat historic. The UK's production which it primarily effects isn't all that important vs the cost to stop it. You probably could exercise a successful U-boat campaign in game if you want to spend but cost vs benefit is difficult to measure as being worth it. Again you have to fight other places, it costs oil. Just played a multiplayer game where I've lost 50% of my U-boat force by June 1940 to Allied Escorts/Airstrikes. I will not bother investing hundreds of production into fighting him this way. Counter intuitive. I think trying to fight him at sea was in fact a waste of resources. I sank maybe 30-40 merchants in exchange for half my U-boat force.


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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/27/2019 3:08:44 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

It means if a player can build as many submarines.

Production here has to mirror a degree of game balance. A player if given more production without ties will just produce more of what they think it is working and functional (and the only feat about submarines is the fact they take a low logistic value).
So if more production was given to supposedly build submarines, probably that production will be redirected into tanks and stuka factories.

Unless a game envision factories that are specialized and just produce what they're designed and tooled for (best of luck to retool a shipyard into making tanks) or some form of soft cap (ie: 25% production to ground units, 25% to air units and 25% to naval units, and the rest 25% is free to assign -- as example) no German player will build submarines if they have the even remote feeling their campaign against the Soviets will be compromised.


Oh I read archivable. Yes it is achievable


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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/27/2019 3:08:56 AM   
Simulacra53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TrogusP96

The Germans were able to do both and the Battle of the Atlantic wasn't won until the two convoy battles fought in April 1943. I've already quoted in another thread the impact of escort production on landing craft production. The war for the Western Allies was at sea and in the air in terms of effort and expenditures in the aggregate and over time. There would be no Overlord without success in those areas. if its abstracted then why not just play Russia Campaign. of course you can argue that it was the decisive campaign so then why not abstract or drop the Western Allies entirely if that is the determinative logic.


Well put.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/27/2019 3:22:41 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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25 total with 15 being at sea at any one time.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/27/2019 6:21:56 AM   
Meteor2


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Ohhhh... My fault... achievable, of course.
My question is, if I would go the historical path and try to build 1000 Uboats in 5 years,
will this hinder the army or airforce build-up so significantly, that hardly anything else can be achieved.
And 1000 boats means 70 - 80 groups in game equivalents.

< Message edited by Meteor2 -- 12/27/2019 6:32:46 AM >

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/27/2019 1:06:57 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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You can the costs in Beta dropped from 200 to 120. We will see how that tests.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/27/2019 1:52:11 PM   
tigercub


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1942 was called the happy time by the Germans Uboat commanders the Allies started winning the UBoat war in may 1943 after large convoy battles HX229 and SC122! this is when it all changed (losing 42 UBoats)! Just saying!

< Message edited by tigercub -- 12/28/2019 4:46:14 AM >


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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare - 12/27/2019 4:06:45 PM   
Taxman66


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1942 was 'happy time' only because idiot US Admiralty refused to listen to UK advice and properly set up convoys, coastal cities took too long a while to implement black outs, etc...

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