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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek!

 
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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/10/2020 8:23:14 PM   
BlueTemplar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I have played Stellaris quite allot as well but I always come back to DWU as I find that as more of a challenge no matter what I do in Stellaris the AI is really stupid and I have no time for MP so that is out for me. DWU AI actually are quite allot better, Paradox AI are for the most part not good. Paradox include way too many mechanic that are in favour of the player that their games become rather empty if you don't use them just so you can play them with some form of equality with the AI. I think that Paradox for the most part design their games wrong when they don't prioritise how the AI should use the features the add.

Stellaris is a nice game and I have played it for more than 1000 hours so I obviously like it, but it certainly is not in my opinion as good a game as DWU and I'm sure DW2 will be even better.

The biggest flaw in Stellaris is the weak economy game, it is way to deterministic and easy to exploit and there are no real strategic choices as all resources are universal and you can practically produce anything anywhere, more or less.

At least my most memorable and difficult games have been in Distant Worlds.

To Paradox credit they at least still balance their games mainly for SP. MP in Stellaris is not terribly well balanced and so seem rather bland in the amount of factions you can use and be competitive, I'm sure the same thing would happen in DW2.

Stellaris is barely a 4X IMHO, more a "Space Empires RPG" (not surprising from a company known best for Crusader Kings 2...). They still don't have basic 4X controls implemented !!
https://old.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/dut80v/the_faults_in_our_stellaris_a_megathread_to/f7e74tp/?context=3

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/10/2020 10:32:07 PM   
swizzlewizzle

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
I therefore reiterate my question about point-like ships :
- How are the turrets going to deal with range ? Especially on biggest ships, where turret to target hull distance might be much shorter than center-of-ship to center-of-ship ?
- Will a turret shoot if it's line of view is blocked ? Is there going to be friendly fire ? On the ship itself and on allied ships ?


The weapon will open fire if it is within range and within its arc of a target. It will not fire at ships it cannot reach or cannot rotate to fire at. It will avoid firing if it would hit its own ship or a friendly ship. Note that some seeking weapons, such as missiles, are not really dependent on arc or obstacles as they can fire out of the ship, then change course and pursue the target. As in DW1, there is a chance, depending on course and speed changes and distance of the friendly and enemy ships, that weapons where their shots take time to reach a target may be in range when fired but not actually in range by the time they would reach the point of impact.



Erik, that brings up a good question then - since turret logic is very heavy CPU wise, and as you said, turrets will be doing raycast checks for range/arc/avoiding firing if a shot would hit it's own/friendly ship, does this mean that to allow the sim to handle the size we came to expect with DW:U, ships off-screen will have these calculations relaxed, and a more simple logic will be used to progress combat?

To be honest, in a 500 vs 500 ship battle, i'm not sure many people would see the difference between ships slightly firing through each-other and not! :)

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Post #: 212
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/11/2020 1:49:53 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Performance is good so far. Can't talk more about all this yet, but I will when I can!

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Post #: 213
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/11/2020 6:03:01 AM   
Benzin1973

 

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Dear Devs, im sad to report that (allready) there is a severe problem / bug with the game. The problem is:
Its not on my library!

Please help me correct this issue ASAP.


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Post #: 214
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/11/2020 7:45:46 AM   
BlueTemplar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: swizzlewizzle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
I therefore reiterate my question about point-like ships :
- How are the turrets going to deal with range ? Especially on biggest ships, where turret to target hull distance might be much shorter than center-of-ship to center-of-ship ?
- Will a turret shoot if it's line of view is blocked ? Is there going to be friendly fire ? On the ship itself and on allied ships ?


The weapon will open fire if it is within range and within its arc of a target. It will not fire at ships it cannot reach or cannot rotate to fire at. It will avoid firing if it would hit its own ship or a friendly ship. Note that some seeking weapons, such as missiles, are not really dependent on arc or obstacles as they can fire out of the ship, then change course and pursue the target. As in DW1, there is a chance, depending on course and speed changes and distance of the friendly and enemy ships, that weapons where their shots take time to reach a target may be in range when fired but not actually in range by the time they would reach the point of impact.



Erik, that brings up a good question then - since turret logic is very heavy CPU wise, and as you said, turrets will be doing raycast checks for range/arc/avoiding firing if a shot would hit it's own/friendly ship, does this mean that to allow the sim to handle the size we came to expect with DW:U, ships off-screen will have these calculations relaxed, and a more simple logic will be used to progress combat?

To be honest, in a 500 vs 500 ship battle, i'm not sure many people would see the difference between ships slightly firing through each-other and not! :)

I wouldn't be too worried about that, modern engines can deal with a LOT of ships/turrets/projectiles !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PKxP30WxYM
(Not sure about the collision checks for projectiles though ?)

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 1/11/2020 7:47:59 AM >

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Post #: 215
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/11/2020 10:36:13 PM   
swizzlewizzle

 

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It's always the collision checks, especially for projectiles, that kill large sci-fi battles. Stellaris had a huge problem with it for 2 years, and it's one of the biggest bottlenecks for X4's performance as well.

I personally hope that off-screen or "out of sector" combat is handled with more simplistic calculations that don't require spawning every projectile, checking for LOS, etc.. :)

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Post #: 216
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/12/2020 9:12:41 AM   
BlueTemplar


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Not sure about X4, but Stellaris uses an obsolete, DirectX9-based engine...

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 1/12/2020 9:13:12 AM >

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Post #: 217
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/13/2020 4:09:34 PM   
Webbco


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When might we expect the next update, Erik?

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Post #: 218
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/13/2020 10:51:24 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64
Definitely love the scale of things....GP


I should also note that the scale of things is adjustable. So if you want the epic realistic space feel you see in the screenshots, you can have it. But if you want ships and stations to be bigger and a bit closer to DW1, that's also going to be possible. By default, we allow for some dynamic scaling so things don't get too small to see before the icons/symbols replace them. The new interface also helps a lot with keeping track of things vs. DW1, even with the epic scale.

The new engine of course also still allows small galaxy games, but it does also allow us to go larger than DW1 if you want an even more massive living galaxy to play in.





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Post #: 219
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/13/2020 10:56:06 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: OJsDad
Hmm, if I'm understanding you, then it's a little disappointing. One of the things I really liked about DW1 was that you could build ships to any size and didn't have to research ship hull size tech first.


In practice, it's not as limiting as you may be thinking. Keep in mind that in Distant Worlds 1, you could not build ships to any size. You started out with size limitations (for example, Size 160 for ships initially) and you had to research to increase your maximum buildable size. The roles were mostly just ways to organize your designs and to set certain component minimums, the size was the real limitation.

In Distant Worlds 2, the ship hulls are effectively the research projects that unlock greater sizes as well as different component limits. Within each ship hull, there is still a lot of design flexibility and I haven't had any trouble duplicating my designs from DW1 so far. Roles still establish certain component minimums, but hulls also establish certain realistic maximums. However, the roles are now also much more meaningful in an absolute sense and not just as an organizational tool. This will become even more apparent when we get to the point of discussing fleets.

Regards,

- Erik




Realistic maximums thank you. My biggest beef with DW1 was the unlimited sizes and no special roles for ship sizes.


< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/15/2020 5:07:28 AM >


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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/14/2020 6:04:40 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I'll mention one other thing as a bonus for you all. Most ship components now also have a fighter/bomber-sized version and in DW2, you not only can design your own ships and stations, but also your own fighters and bombers based on the technologies you have researched. Similar to ships, there are upgradable hulls and in some cases faction-unique hulls for fighters and bombers as well.


Drool...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/15/2020 4:42:13 AM >


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Post #: 221
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/15/2020 4:28:55 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Performance is good so far. Can't talk more about all this yet, but I will when I can!


Hi Erik,

The Bacon Mod has added so many extra options and settings to Distant Worlds 1 that many felt were missing. Some examples I love are No Independents and No Random Game Breaking Super Ships placed on the map from start/events and war weariness dropping slowly over time instead of instantly, setting costs, etc... Will we see such options in DW2? Any other ideas you guys might use from this amazing mod that took DW to another level? So many great options and configurable settings!

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/15/2020 5:14:41 AM >


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Post #: 222
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/16/2020 2:02:55 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Hi Tanaka,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
The Bacon Mod has added so many extra options and settings to Distant Worlds 1 that many felt were missing. Some examples I love are No Independents and No Random Game Breaking Super Ships placed on the map from start/events and war weariness dropping slowly over time instead of instantly, setting costs, etc... Will we see such options in DW2? Any other ideas you guys might use from this amazing mod that took DW to another level? So many great options and configurable settings!


We're aware of the Bacon mod and have been impressed with the author's work and happy to have it continue for DW1. When we get to the point of adding testers, we'd love to have his participation on the test team and community feedback regarding features or tweaks that would be the most popular to add to DW2 that are not already in there. The best point to have this discussion I think is once testers have had a chance to play around with DW2.

Regards,

- Erik



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Director of Product Development




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 223
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/16/2020 4:47:03 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Tanaka,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
The Bacon Mod has added so many extra options and settings to Distant Worlds 1 that many felt were missing. Some examples I love are No Independents and No Random Game Breaking Super Ships placed on the map from start/events and war weariness dropping slowly over time instead of instantly, setting costs, etc... Will we see such options in DW2? Any other ideas you guys might use from this amazing mod that took DW to another level? So many great options and configurable settings!


We're aware of the Bacon mod and have been impressed with the author's work and happy to have it continue for DW1. When we get to the point of adding testers, we'd love to have his participation on the test team and community feedback regarding features or tweaks that would be the most popular to add to DW2 that are not already in there. The best point to have this discussion I think is once testers have had a chance to play around with DW2.

Regards,

- Erik




Fair enough thanks for your responses Erik!

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Post #: 224
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/17/2020 2:41:42 PM   
Grognerd_INC


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I imagine it's still too early to ask this question, but what the heck, it can't hurt to ask!
Will the game be able to support graphics and detail of local stars similar to the one pictured? This image is used as a galaxy backdrop then edited in the map editor. The scale is roughly 2000 LY from Sol to the edges. This would comprise millions of stars in game I used the 1400 max allowable. (I added several stars just to show a few positions = Sol, Antares, Spica, Rigel & Betelgeuse)





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by larrybush -- 1/17/2020 4:01:02 PM >

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Post #: 225
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/23/2020 4:39:38 PM   
Canute0

 

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I just saw the Spaceport picture and need to say, looks nice but wrong ! :-)
At DW1 spaceport's was only one allowed at a planet and i think you will keep that for DW2 too.
The unique part of a spaceport is the spacelift that connect to the planet. And this isn't reflected at the picture.
Not to speak that the central axis should point toward to planet to have a stable orbit.

IMO 3D is overrated, sure it is nice to see some model's at closeup. But honestly mosttime of your gameplay expierence you will see ships/station from the distance.
And when this 3D thing you want to have prevent the good shipdesign like we got at DW1 you maybe overthink that.
DW1 was real great with his shipdesign, that allow me to create battleships that are faster then destroyer, so i hight devote against "they also unlock particular hulls with somewhat different sizes and maximum component slot arrangements." and keep the freedom over components and hulls and the research just adjust the max. size like at DW1. Don't forget world destroyer are just shuttle's when you build ship with the size of gas giants ! :-)

The firing arc i read about is overrated too, it is space combat not naval combat.
At space the ship can fly with max. speed forward, while the front point backwards. Just switch a big weapon system to thruster.
So i think all weapons systems should stay at 360°topdown.
Except you want create a realtime battlesimulator, than the firing arc indeed would made sense, but not in a strategic game.

And i hope DW2 don't will be a Steam only release.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/3/2020 11:52:16 AM   
Rising-Sun


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As long it is modable then I am happy with it.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/3/2020 1:30:23 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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DW2 will not be a Steam-only release. As far as the other comments, at this point you unfortunately have to rely on the theoretical and what we can tell you. Of course, in the end we can't please everyone but hopefully you will enjoy it more than you think.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/12/2020 1:39:02 PM   
Drumline2

 

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Hey Erik, was just wondering if you guys are planning on a beta process and what the process will be like to apply for testing?

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/13/2020 12:23:17 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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There will be a beta test and it will be announced here so that members of the community can sign up for a spot as soon as we are ready.

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Post #: 230
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/13/2020 1:44:33 PM   
R_TEAM


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Hi,
cant find an answer ...
Will DW2 multiplayer or again singleplayer only .... ?

Regards

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/13/2020 6:58:29 PM   
Roterakete

 

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Hello!

Great news!


I played your project from the first day of creation!

not a single worthy space strategy has come out in recent times, but you continue the work of classic games, reminding me of the first projects like "Space Commander" (like that) on sega.

< Message edited by Roterakete -- 2/13/2020 7:14:30 PM >

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Post #: 232
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/26/2020 10:21:15 AM   
FlashXAron_slith

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: R_TEAM

Hi,
cant find an answer ...
Will DW2 multiplayer or again singleplayer only .... ?

Regards


At least I hope for 1-4 players and also waiting for an answer !


(in reply to R_TEAM)
Post #: 233
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/26/2020 8:50:44 PM   
R_TEAM


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same here ....
can think it is hard to implement "right" an multiplayer part of an game that is "nice" in the full control of one player (pause the game self/on massages/on events ...)

One valid idea i can think is the "very old" game style of the C64 area game "Panzer Strike"(and his sucessors ..) from SSI
If i remember correct it was divided in phases where you give commands and the game is for all on hold - and an phase where your units try to complete the commands and the game is running - switching to the command phase was only in defined intervalls possible (to not hold the game every next day ..) and can be activated by any player - or if all player are satisfyed with the progress and no one press the key for command phase, the game run an additional "running" phase after there it can hold again, if needed ...
Maybe an option for an game, where round-based is not optimal - and realtime a problem too ....

< Message edited by R_TEAM -- 2/26/2020 8:52:02 PM >

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/27/2020 7:48:43 PM   
SirHoraceHarkness


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No way you could play this online multiplayer due to the sheer amount of ships in play on even a small map when you factor in the private sector. Transmitting the exact x/y coordinates in real time for every ship to every client would saturate the upload bandwidth of a typical home connection. Not even sure a higher end lan could do it though it would probably be possible. Supreme commander has thousands of units at a time in its online peer to peer matches and it can lag badly even with good rigs and connects and that's just a fraction of what a typical empire would have in the private sector alone. If this was a turned based game then yeah no problems but this is a real time grand strategy and the mechanics are very different.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/28/2020 2:07:03 AM   
icon41gimp

 

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Hey Erik, very excited to hear about the next installment of DW!

My apologies if you already answered this - I didn't see anything on font and the UI text.

IMO one of the things Stellaris does really well is that you can play forever, deep into the night, without getting eye strain. It has a great combination of a soft easy font and good text vs. background color choices. When I look at the second screenshot you posted I think it screams that I'm going to have a massive headache an hour into playing this. It looks like you're using the same font as DWU, which has one of the worst fonts in the last 10-20 years of gaming I think. Then some of the color schemes: grey-on-yellow, blue-on-black, white-on-yellow don't look like they were designed for the actual lighting conditions that people often play games in.

Can you say whether additional passes will be made toward these elements of the UI or if they will be modifiable? I hope you think about how the game looks outside of fluorescently lit 10:00 am office conditions.

Thanks!

(in reply to SirHoraceHarkness)
Post #: 236
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/28/2020 5:51:18 PM   
R_TEAM


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From: Germany
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So you "inofficel" say Multiplayer will not happen .....
sad - as then the game is not more in interest for me (maybe for 5€ i would buy it - not from the quality of the game - but from the fact i play nearly no singleplayer games, and i dont realy need an game i play 10hours in year ...)

On the other side i would not say it is impossible to get this running in multiplayer ... in SupremeCommander:ForgedAlliance (an game that i have massiv played with BlackOPs mod and other mods, even self modded) one player can have more than 40k units - with 4 player we get on 160k units ...
Cant imagine from the few DWU videos i have seen (self played only an version from an friend a couple of hours - as said, singleplayer games only very low interesting for me..) an empire have more than ~5000 private ships + 5000 millitary ships - so 10k for one empire - dont think an amount of around 100k units is "untrackable" in actual multiplayer games in realtime.
[on stellaris you have the problem with the non-fitting engine for this - the engine is nice for EU4 or HOI4 - with an much lower amount of individual units/pops that musst calculated ..)

But maybe you are right for DW2 and the engine it is used - this would explain the silent from the developers over this ...

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Post #: 237
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/28/2020 6:51:22 PM   
springel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness

No way you could play this online multiplayer due to the sheer amount of ships in play on even a small map when you factor in the private sector. Transmitting the exact x/y coordinates in real time for every ship to every client would saturate the upload bandwidth of a typical home connection. Not even sure a higher end lan could do it though it would probably be possible. Supreme commander has thousands of units at a time in its online peer to peer matches and it can lag badly even with good rigs and connects and that's just a fraction of what a typical empire would have in the private sector alone. If this was a turned based game then yeah no problems but this is a real time grand strategy and the mechanics are very different.


There are ways to solve this problem.

If the game is deterministic, ie. random numbers use the same seed in all players instances, you only need to transmit user input, and games will remain in sync without transmitting loads of data. Europa Universalis does this, and it works rather good by now (after a lot of iterations to iron out bugs). And that game has a comparable number of units, and much more AI players.

(in reply to SirHoraceHarkness)
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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/28/2020 8:41:24 PM   
SirHoraceHarkness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: springel

There are ways to solve this problem.

If the game is deterministic, ie. random numbers use the same seed in all players instances, you only need to transmit user input, and games will remain in sync without transmitting loads of data. Europa Universalis does this, and it works rather good by now (after a lot of iterations to iron out bugs). And that game has a comparable number of units, and much more AI players.


Yes but that is a turn based game so all data is sent in a dump on turn end for the other players to see and act on. For you to be able to target and destroy private commerce you will have to have the ship locations updated in real time and that is simply too much info given how many ships are in play. I'm sure some level of predictive programming can be used to estimate a ships location or even a dedicated server where the server holds the game world and the clients are simply dumb terminals that display output and accept input. But both of those I feel are going to require a load more effort and especially balance than the tiny dev team we have here is willing to take on or better yet fund. Be happy we get a new distant worlds at all.

(in reply to springel)
Post #: 239
RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 2/28/2020 9:33:44 PM   
R_TEAM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness

Yes but that is a turn based game ...



No - both realtime (EU4 & HOI4) with variable Time speed and Pause option all time .... the same as DW 1
It is very simple (as springel have already wrote)
If 2 PCs have exact the same data start, and all numbers to calculate (variables and Random numbers) on both systems the same, then the result should be 100% the same on all PCs .... in theorie ...
In reality rounding errors, espacialy in floating point calculation get sometimes a slight different result - for this the host correct this as his numbers final ... so only little correction checksums and the user input musst send over network ...

The interesting question if, is the new engine cabable of this ... (as you have implied, this is not an AAA gaming studio ..)
But i would like to hear still the answer of multiplayer Yes or No .... even if it No, then i musst not more care over this game, where would be sad, as it is an spiritual sucessor of grande 4X Strategig games like Space Empire series.

< Message edited by R_TEAM -- 2/28/2020 9:35:38 PM >

(in reply to SirHoraceHarkness)
Post #: 240
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