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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek!

 
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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/26/2019 2:48:46 AM   
swizzlewizzle

 

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In the rogue-like and dark souls-like genres, challenge exists. :)

(in reply to Retreat1970)
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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/26/2019 12:30:30 PM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

Yeah it's an old argument that I lost a long time ago (SP and MP).

I just want a challenge. SP will never challenge like a person. I won't bring it up again I Promise.


The challenge is in "role-playing" different handicaps and don't abuse obvious shortcomings of the AI and treating the game as a simulation not a competition. That will produce challenge in and of itself... you can be very efficient and challenging within specific framework ;)

In DW1 for example I would not build just one size of ships for all roles and stay more in line with similar AI designs and adhere to some faction specific set of preferences even if they were not the best thing to do most of the time. That will produce a different type of challenge and problems that you will need to overcome. The same problem DW1 faced in terms of abusing population growth, the AI never did that so I felt it was cheating to do that as a player too, I really did not need that advantage over the AI.

A single player game is not always about winning either... the ultimate goal can be many different things. It could simply be to live in a secure and stable galaxy where trade could prosper. You can set goals that are more difficult to achieve than just conquer everything while abusing every mechanical loophole the AI can't or won't.

I want AI factions to behave according to their philosophical convictions rather than gaming the mechanics of the game.

That is why I think SP balance are way more fun than MP balance as it is OK for some factions or mechanics to be stronger than others.

AI will always be AI and current computer science will limit AI capabilities, that is just a fact. But I rarely appreciate MP play in games like these either as they are all about role-play for me. If I want a challenge I would play games that are pure MP. In my opinion a game should be either MP or SP not both as then you will end up with being bad at both.

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 12/26/2019 12:43:51 PM >

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/26/2019 1:06:15 PM   
Grognerd_INC


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quote:

AI will always be AI and current computer science will limit AI capabilities, that is just a fact. But I rarely appreciate MP play in games like these either as they are all about role-play for me. If I want a challenge I would play games that are pure MP. In my opinion a game should be either MP or SP not both as then you will end up with being bad at both.


I like DW - Universe, unlike it's competitors it has reasonably good AI and is highly mod-able.
I do remember though the best sci-fi I played is when Ted and I played Master of Orion 2 up until the TCP/IP bug ended play. MP is important but single player AI comes first.

Just a hint of MP is interesting but I don't think I'll ever find a gaming partner as well matched as Ted (he has a big family now and no time for games! - Ha!) So for me SP is the most important aspect, keep the AI credible.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/26/2019 3:55:37 PM   
kai_esk

 

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That looks great, just a question:

Will be planet be of a single type (eg artic, desert) or have different bimes in them ? (eg terran planet having some % suited to desert or artic species, artic planets having small temperate zones...)

It's looking great, looking forwar for more info!

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/26/2019 5:56:12 PM   
Retreat1970


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quote:

treating the game as a simulation not a competition


I disagree. If the game was a simulation there would be no other empires, no warships, no troops. Ultimately the game is about war, and that is competition. I have never played a DWU game where I didn't compete for something.

If there's no risk of loss there is no challenge. Boredom.

I digress... it's your nickel. It doesn't matter how anyone plays their games since it's SP only.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/26/2019 10:58:36 PM   
sinbuster

 

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I'm curious, what settings do you play with? Being a sandbox game, you could make the game brutally hard I imagine. Me, I have troubles with pirates stronger than normal because the early game spam is too much (I do love to micro everything so maybe my slowing response time is the problem).

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/26/2019 11:40:09 PM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

quote:

treating the game as a simulation not a competition


I disagree. If the game was a simulation there would be no other empires, no warships, no troops. Ultimately the game is about war, and that is competition. I have never played a DWU game where I didn't compete for something.

If there's no risk of loss there is no challenge. Boredom.

I digress... it's your nickel. It doesn't matter how anyone plays their games since it's SP only.


You have a strange view of simulation though, simulation in this regard is more about how the AI play the game such as ethics and overall philosophy... it is role-play. That means using restrictions to increase the fun and difficulty of the game as a player too. If I play a trader race I do everything I can to not end up in wars as it undercut my trade unless I absolutely have to. Not because it is the best thing to do but because that is how they most likely would try to do it as they probably don't like wars that much. I also expect the AI to play that faction in roughly a similar way...

I don't see why there would be no risk of loss or challenge, I would say there is even more of it as you are often forced to play sub optimal in many ways.

That is why I think having some imbalance is inherently good in SP as you might want to play factions that are either stronger or weaker and explore alternate strategies and play-styles that comes with them. Playing a weaker faction also presents its own inherent problems.

These kinds of balancing work relatively poorly if everything needs to be balanced to be fair from the get go as you need if a game is oriented around MP. This does not mean there are some sort of overall balance of fairness or equality in the game in general.

That is why I'm glad the game is SP first and maybe MP second, that means the game will not be treated as a competition piece. If I want that I play a game that is meant for that. I also believe that creating a game this complex will never really work well in MP as balancing it that well would be next to impossible unless you want everything to just feel the same.

I'm not against MP in the game by any stretch...

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 12/26/2019 11:45:38 PM >

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/26/2019 11:59:28 PM   
Retreat1970


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Yeah, you're right.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/27/2019 12:51:02 AM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

Yeah, you're right.


Not sure I'm right... but it's at least my opinion. ;)

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/27/2019 1:54:31 AM   
Retreat1970


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I played DWU a lot. Too much. After awhile to feel challenged I had to gimp myself horribly. House rules. More advanced AI starts etc... I'm not a great player but I play aggressive and the AI can't cope. Now if I played you...

I'm into Stellaris a lot now. It'll take something GOOD to pull me away from it, but with no mod out of the box and no MP I may wait until DW2 is more mature before I jump.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/27/2019 4:11:26 AM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

You have a strange view of simulation though, simulation in this regard is more about how the AI play the game such as ethics and overall philosophy... it is role-play. That means using restrictions to increase the fun and difficulty of the game as a player too. If I play a trader race I do everything I can to not end up in wars as it undercut my trade unless I absolutely have to. Not because it is the best thing to do but because that is how they most likely would try to do it as they probably don't like wars that much. I also expect the AI to play that faction in roughly a similar way...

I don't see why there would be no risk of loss or challenge, I would say there is even more of it as you are often forced to play sub optimal in many ways.

That is why I think having some imbalance is inherently good in SP as you might want to play factions that are either stronger or weaker and explore alternate strategies and play-styles that comes with them. Playing a weaker faction also presents its own inherent problems.

These kinds of balancing work relatively poorly if everything needs to be balanced to be fair from the get go as you need if a game is oriented around MP. This does not mean there are some sort of overall balance of fairness or equality in the game in general.

That is why I'm glad the game is SP first and maybe MP second, that means the game will not be treated as a competition piece. If I want that I play a game that is meant for that. I also believe that creating a game this complex will never really work well in MP as balancing it that well would be next to impossible unless you want everything to just feel the same.

I'm not against MP in the game by any stretch...


A very thought-provoking analysis. Kudos to you for a great post!

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/27/2019 11:56:46 AM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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I have played Stellaris quite allot as well but I always come back to DWU as I find that as more of a challenge no matter what I do in Stellaris the AI is really stupid and I have no time for MP so that is out for me. DWU AI actually are quite allot better, Paradox AI are for the most part not good. Paradox include way too many mechanic that are in favour of the player that their games become rather empty if you don't use them just so you can play them with some form of equality with the AI. I think that Paradox for the most part design their games wrong when they don't prioritise how the AI should use the features the add.

Stellaris is a nice game and I have played it for more than 1000 hours so I obviously like it, but it certainly is not in my opinion as good a game as DWU and I'm sure DW2 will be even better.

The biggest flaw in Stellaris is the weak economy game, it is way to deterministic and easy to exploit and there are no real strategic choices as all resources are universal and you can practically produce anything anywhere, more or less.

At least my most memorable and difficult games have been in Distant Worlds.

To Paradox credit they at least still balance their games mainly for SP. MP in Stellaris is not terribly well balanced and so seem rather bland in the amount of factions you can use and be competitive, I'm sure the same thing would happen in DW2.

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 12/27/2019 12:04:07 PM >

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/27/2019 5:04:18 PM   
StarLab


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Everything looks fantastic (and familiar).



< Message edited by StarLab -- 1/7/2020 7:59:50 PM >


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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/28/2019 11:12:45 AM   
Miskatonic81

 

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It seems like the biggest news is the use of slots for ship design. I'm curious if this change is mainly a consequence of moving to 3D, or if you could port the system back to DW1 would you do so.

As a filthy automation player, I don't have much of an opinion on the new ship designs either way as I usually let the AI make them anyway. The quirkiness of the old system was endearing even though I never used it much, but it sounds like you can make some quirky designs with the new system too. I prefer to watch my ant farm rather than micromanage it so I can't wait to hear more news about the economy and simulation aspects. Definitely a game I've been waiting for for years now. I used to lurk these forums every 6 months or so looking for news, and it's actually hard to believe that we're finally getting some lol. Thanks for sharing the screenshots and info.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 12/31/2019 5:34:01 AM   
eytchdi

 

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long time stalker ever since Distant Worlds Universe..
Had to register and say, DW2 is jawdropping.. AWEEESOME!!!

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/3/2020 2:08:52 AM   
LordMM

 

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What I'm most excited about is that we can finally design our own fighters. I'm so gonna make my own version of a Tie fighter swarm.

< Message edited by LordMM -- 1/3/2020 2:09:32 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/3/2020 2:16:41 AM   
LordMM

 

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The best part of the game is the atmosphere it creates. Larger empires having a populated inner rim, an outer rim which could be less stable due to pirate attacks. Entire section of space filled with pirates, sort of like the star wars outer rim or the Terminus systems in Mass effect.Freighters, transports moving from resources one planet to the other. Etc...

Stellaris and others ate mostly sliders and buttons. Nothing we can see visually as the empire grows.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/5/2020 5:28:25 AM   
ReadeB

 

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Not sure how the community would feel about this but, would the DEVs consider adding an API to allow a third party AI to play?

AlphaStar learned by watching players play against one another and trying to predict the next move and then went on to play AI vs AI until it was unbeatable.

Allowing Players to upload a complete log of every move would provide a dataset and an API would allow the AI to actually control another player.

Currently AlphaStar can beat 99.9% of all human players.

Should put some pause in all those players that complain about an AI that can't compete.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/6/2020 1:04:28 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordMM
The ship designs and art work is amazing. My only little concern is if my little old computer will be able to handle it.


Thank you - as long as you can run 3D games, you should be ok. The system requirements, apart from 3D, are not really greater than DW1 based on our testing so far.


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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/7/2020 1:31:00 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: swizzlewizzle
Two small questions - will ships, especially the larger ones, be able to target multiple targets at the same time and split their fire? It would look quite silly to see a mega dreadnaught with 1000 weapons on it being forced to focus fire on a tiny corvette, for example. :)


Yes they will. Ships have a primary target, but will use weapons out of arc of the primary target, energy permitting, to shoot other targets. They will also prioritize incoming interceptable targets with their point defense weapons rather than firing them at ships (though they may still do that if there are no interceptable targets and energy permits).

quote:

Additionally, will we have the ability to set up target prioritizations for turrets in the design menu, or is that something that would need to be added after launch? Ie. Ability to set a flak cannon to prioritize shooting missiles and then fighters second - this would be especially important for weapons that are more flexible.


This is built into the tactical AI for each ship, based on the weapon type and its characteristics. If a flak cannon was setup as a point defense weapon with interception capabilities, which would typically also mean relatively low damage per shot for purposes of getting through ship armor and shield resistance, but a rapid rate of fire, then it would automatically prioritize shooting interceptable targets such as fighters and missiles.

Regards,

- Erik



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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/7/2020 1:33:13 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kai_esk
Will be planet be of a single type (eg artic, desert) or have different bimes in them ? (eg terran planet having some % suited to desert or artic species, artic planets having small temperate zones...)


Planets are of a single type, though there are quite a few more types than there were in DW1 and some represent a mix of previous types, which in effect creates some of the mixed biome effect you were wondering about. We'll reveal all of those in time.


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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/7/2020 1:33:58 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970
If there's no risk of loss there is no challenge.


I hope the upgraded AI in DW2 will provide you with some risk of loss.


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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/7/2020 1:38:42 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miskatonic81
It seems like the biggest news is the use of slots for ship design. I'm curious if this change is mainly a consequence of moving to 3D, or if you could port the system back to DW1 would you do so.


That's a good question. The move to 3D was certainly a significant part of the decision, but I also noted earlier in this thread that there were other considerations as well. Had we stayed with 2D for DW2, I think we would have still ended up with most of the same decisions on ship design as we were heading in that direction with our thinking in DW1 as well to help resolve some of the design balance issues there. We probably would not have gone all-in on weapon arcs, but the design bays and ship hulls would likely have still happened.


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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/7/2020 1:40:55 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ReadeB
Not sure how the community would feel about this but, would the DEVs consider adding an API to allow a third party AI to play?

AlphaStar learned by watching players play against one another and trying to predict the next move and then went on to play AI vs AI until it was unbeatable.

Allowing Players to upload a complete log of every move would provide a dataset and an API would allow the AI to actually control another player.

Currently AlphaStar can beat 99.9% of all human players.

Should put some pause in all those players that complain about an AI that can't compete.


That's not in our current plans, and with DW1 it would have been effectively impossible. I'll discuss it with Elliot though and see if it's something we could consider for future releases.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/9/2020 2:21:56 AM   
Medway

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ReadeB

Not sure how the community would feel about this but, would the DEVs consider adding an API to allow a third party AI to play?

AlphaStar learned by watching players play against one another and trying to predict the next move and then went on to play AI vs AI until it was unbeatable.

Allowing Players to upload a complete log of every move would provide a dataset and an API would allow the AI to actually control another player.

Currently AlphaStar can beat 99.9% of all human players.

Should put some pause in all those players that complain about an AI that can't compete.


I don't think the games it's been trained in compare to DW at all. From what I read humars are already outsmarting it too.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/9/2020 7:28:29 AM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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I have been studying and using neural network programming for some time and something like Starnet would not work with a game as complex as Distant Worlds. It's menu and GUI would be FAR to complex for any such application and the input needed to be made by the neural network AI would be insane. We also have to understand that the goals of an AI in a game like Distant Worlds are allot more complex than a game of say Star Craft or other similar real-time games, not to mention different races can have almost limitless differences in permutation of starting conditions and preferences.

We are probably a few decades away form any neural network AI capable of handling a game such as Distant Worlds in terms of total game play. Part of its game play could probably be used by something such as a Starnet like AI, for example tactical ship combat, strategical positioning of fleets and military ship production, but that is probably it.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/9/2020 11:46:41 AM   
BlueTemplar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
[...]
The investment in 3D simply doesn't make sense if everything is going to shoot its weapons from a central point through the hull. As soon as you look at that from any relatively close distance, it's going to look bad. So you need some way to have external points for weapons and once you specify those, you need some kind of weapon mount or turret and ideally it should be able to rotate and fire in a way that looks realistic and cool. Then you need specific places for engines, maybe also things like defenses and sensors, etc. The end result of all this guides you towards a system that allows for the external visualization of component choices, which in turn guides you to component slots or design bays.
[...]


I therefore reiterate my question about point-like ships :
- How are the turrets going to deal with range ? Especially on biggest ships, where turret to target hull distance might be much shorter than center-of-ship to center-of-ship ?
- Will a turret shoot if it's line of view is blocked ? Is there going to be friendly fire ? On the ship itself and on allied ships ?

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/9/2020 11:47:12 AM   
BlueTemplar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Retreat1970

quote:

I would think that an unprovoked mention of multiplayer would raise your hope quite a bit. At least it has been in their mind when creating the foundations of the game


It sort of does, but not being included at launch and possibly added as a patch doesn't bode well in my mind.

Well, quite different game genre, but AFAIK that's what Factorio did, and it worked out pretty well for them, with games still working well up to 400 players !
(One complete rewrite of netcode later, to move from peer to peer to a more classic server-client...)

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 1/10/2020 12:25:30 AM >

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/10/2020 1:32:46 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
I therefore reiterate my question about point-like ships :
- How are the turrets going to deal with range ? Especially on biggest ships, where turret to target hull distance might be much shorter than center-of-ship to center-of-ship ?
- Will a turret shoot if it's line of view is blocked ? Is there going to be friendly fire ? On the ship itself and on allied ships ?


The weapon will open fire if it is within range and within its arc of a target. It will not fire at ships it cannot reach or cannot rotate to fire at. It will avoid firing if it would hit its own ship or a friendly ship. Note that some seeking weapons, such as missiles, are not really dependent on arc or obstacles as they can fire out of the ship, then change course and pursue the target. As in DW1, there is a chance, depending on course and speed changes and distance of the friendly and enemy ships, that weapons where their shots take time to reach a target may be in range when fired but not actually in range by the time they would reach the point of impact.


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 1/10/2020 1:33:22 AM >


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RE: Distant Worlds 2 Christmas Sneak Peek! - 1/10/2020 4:46:52 PM   
Drumline2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
I therefore reiterate my question about point-like ships :
- How are the turrets going to deal with range ? Especially on biggest ships, where turret to target hull distance might be much shorter than center-of-ship to center-of-ship ?
- Will a turret shoot if it's line of view is blocked ? Is there going to be friendly fire ? On the ship itself and on allied ships ?


The weapon will open fire if it is within range and within its arc of a target. It will not fire at ships it cannot reach or cannot rotate to fire at. It will avoid firing if it would hit its own ship or a friendly ship. Note that some seeking weapons, such as missiles, are not really dependent on arc or obstacles as they can fire out of the ship, then change course and pursue the target. As in DW1, there is a chance, depending on course and speed changes and distance of the friendly and enemy ships, that weapons where their shots take time to reach a target may be in range when fired but not actually in range by the time they would reach the point of impact.



Interesting. In DWU ships would clump up during fights, so in DW2 if ships wont fire if they risk friendly fire is there going to be a formation system within fleets to keep the ships spaced appropriately? Or is there a general AI behavior to keep the ships from being too close/on top of each other so their firepower isnt wasted by being in each others way.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
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