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Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino)

 
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Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/12/2019 9:14:25 PM   
Chocolino


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Of course Germany wants revenge for Versailles - but Gary also asked for revenge. So here we go again with the same sides as before. I hope we can change a few things around this time.

Scenario: 1939 - V1.03 - which is quite different in balance from later versions.
Allies: gwgardner
Axis: Chocolino (who feels like an actor always cast in the role of the villain)
House rules: none (though Gary sometimes has his own self-imposed and unofficial restrictions)

< Message edited by Chocolino -- 1/20/2020 11:27:20 PM >
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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/12/2019 9:28:58 PM   
Chocolino


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9-1-39

German HQ is surprised to learn of the British/French declaration of war after nothing more than having made the well intentioned attempt to bring an advanced form of government to Poland.

German forces already assembled at the Polish border are recalled to the west to deal with the new enemy. Local commanders are told to finish the Polish campaign with less forces than initially planned. Unfortunately, not many German units are near rail heads at this late stage before the Polish campaign and the transport west will not be instantaneous.

German HQ expects the following consequences from the last minute change of force allocation

- The Polish campaign will take several weeks longer
- The West can be attacked about a month earlier than waiting for the completion of the conquest of Poland.

The first German attack is correspondingly anemic as you can see below. Some units have to be moved to rail lines to be shipped next turn (e.g. German tank corps at north map edge).




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< Message edited by Chocolino -- 12/12/2019 9:30:49 PM >

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/12/2019 11:18:24 PM   
Flaviusx


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Now that is a novel start. This should be interesting. I think I could make Poland drag out 4-5 turns given such an opening. But does that even make much of a difference? Probably not.

Am skeptical that you can shave off a month from the Western timetable. Not unless you somehow knock out Belgium quickly, and the Belgians are kind of tough now. With 1-2 turns of clear weather and 1 panzer to start with and two for the second turn, that's unlikely. The Dutch are doable, but that doesn't do much to advance the timetable.

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/12/2019 11:36:22 PM   
Michael T


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I did pretty much the same in my game as Axis. Though my Polish attack was not quite so lame. I think if you get lucky with the weather in Benelux/France this opening can really payoff.

How I wish I had started my new game almost 2 weeks ago now, instead of waiting for this never appearing patch. I think I have forgotten how to play.

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/12/2019 11:59:57 PM   
Flaviusx


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You got ridiculously good weather luck in your game. Of the dozen or so times I've played out the Germans I have never seen such good weather. You won the lottery on that one.

Also, both France and Belgium were much weaker in the version of the game you played. This makes a big difference, I found this out myself and grinding it out in Belgium ended up with France falling in...July of 1940. I think I would've done better just taking out the Dutch and sitting tight until May of 40. Fewer losses, at any rate.



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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/13/2019 2:32:59 AM   
Chocolino


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9-15-39

With a massive effort of the Luftwaffe German spearheads manage to eliminate the defenders of Amsterdam (except for the Dutch air) - just to then fail occupying it. So we will have to do this fight all over next turn. If the British manage to send in some very strong unit we won't be able to do it next turn of course. But that comes with some interdiction risk for the British.




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< Message edited by Chocolino -- 12/13/2019 2:35:22 AM >

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/13/2019 2:40:37 AM   
Chocolino


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9-15-39

Yes, the attack on Poland is slow - but that does not really do any harm I believe as long as it does not delay the activities in the West.

In the West not many German units can be deployed anyways because of the narrow front - so most German units that are still in Poland are not really missed yet.


Poznan and Kracow are under German control. Lodz and Warsaw are still missing to ensure a Polish surrender.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/13/2019 9:05:27 PM   
Chocolino


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9-29-39

Switched from divisional to corps sized attacks for Denmark. The Germans could defeat the Danish defender in the capital but not occupy it. A corps seems overkill but the chance of facing a British corps in Copenhagen spooked me.

The Kriegsmarine is also out in force to deter any British adventures in Denmark. They should not be able to sail directly into Copenhagen now.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/13/2019 9:10:40 PM   
Chocolino


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9-29-39

The Wehrmacht takes Warsaw but not Lodz and avoids any unnecessary battles in order to conserve manpower. So far the campaign unfolds as expected. We need one more turn of decent weather.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/13/2019 9:15:31 PM   
Chocolino


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9-29-39

Amsterdam falls in the West and the Netherlands surrenders. All other Dutch forces were left alone. Our second tank corps finally arrived at the border to Belgium.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/14/2019 11:49:36 PM   
Chocolino


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10-13-39

We can free Lodz from defenders - but cannot occupy it because of the rainy weather. This seems to become a theme in this particular game after Amsterdam and Copenhagen - and self-inflicted. We have no high operations points units left in Poland which would have avoided this dilemma since we moved them all to the West already.

Taking Lodz would have ended the Polish campaign - so we will miss these German units a bit longer. The Germans are also reluctant to ship more units out west right now since there are too many Polish milling about and potentially occupying supply lines.




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< Message edited by Chocolino -- 12/14/2019 11:51:39 PM >

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/14/2019 11:56:22 PM   
Chocolino


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10-13-39

Germany declares war on Belgium and gains 2 hexes on Brussels.

It is also worth mentioning that German subs roam the oceans with some success so far. On the flip side the Allies run a very heavy strategic bombing campaign on German cities that involve not only the heavy bombers but also every tactical bomber at their disposal. The effects are noticeable.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/14/2019 11:57:39 PM   
Chocolino


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10-13-39

At least the Wehrmacht can finish the Danish campaign. British fleets that have been spotted cruising the North sea did not intervene.




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< Message edited by Chocolino -- 12/14/2019 11:58:06 PM >

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/15/2019 3:44:18 PM   
Chocolino


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10-27-39

Rain has turned to heavy rain. We can defeat the defenders of Lodz again - and again we fail to take it. So the remaining Polish will just re-occupy it at their leisure.

Furthermore, all the circled Polish units sit on German supply lines. Not attacking any of the remaining defenders can now threaten the effectiveness of the German units there. For now there is still the Breslau - Lodz railway.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/15/2019 3:50:51 PM   
Chocolino


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10-27-93

Heavy rain also in Belgium. Not only make the Germans no progress, a Belgian cavalry corps becomes adventurous and enters German soil. We are strapped short of German units and need to use divisions to block all threats. Luckily we can now ship back divisions from the two corps used in the Danish campaign.

The Belgian cavalry is cut off - keeping in mind that Luxembourg is still neutral.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/15/2019 11:38:16 PM   
Chocolino


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11-10-39

The muddy weather continues in Europe - it is not helpful. Three German units around Lodz are out of supply and we are contenting ourselves with just surrounding Lodz.

Our "shoestring" Polish takes now definitely longer than planned and can even have bad consequences.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/15/2019 11:42:51 PM   
Chocolino


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11-10-39

The Wehrmacht exhausts itself once more to take Brussels but fails miserably despite extensive Luftwaffe support. The cut-off Belgian cavalry terrorizes the Rheinland/Rhineland.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/16/2019 1:05:18 AM   
Michael T


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Ouch

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/16/2019 10:14:41 AM   
gwgardner

 

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Rumors have it that France and Great Britain have offered assistance to Luxembourg, in defending that small nation's sovereignty against the kind of brutality that Germany has shown to the world, in Poland, the Netherlands, and Belgium.

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/16/2019 3:14:52 PM   
Flaviusx


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This is going about how I expected, lol.

Doing Belgium early isn't easy. I personally doubt it is worth doing at all until and unless you get clear weather.

And Poland really needs 1 panzer unit or it bogs down. The allied player didn't even do certain things I would've done to make this even worse for the Germans. (Note to allied player: garrison mode and prioritizing replacements is your friend. And does Poland really need an airforce? Disband that and feed the replacements into your ground troops. I wouldn't have swapped out the unit in Warsaw, either. I would've left it in place to keep the entrenchments. These tricks apply to Belgium as well, come to think of it. But you probably want to get a French corps into Brussels now.)

Barring extreme good weather luck it is much harder to rush the West now than at release.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/16/2019 3:49:35 PM >


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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/16/2019 3:58:24 PM   
gwgardner

 

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quote:

And does Poland really need an airforce? Disband that and feed the replacements into your ground troops.


I never do things like that. Gamey.

I actually never took Poland seriously, until I realized my opponent had stripped all the armor out to the west. By then only Lodz was still in my hands.

I'm not really a very good player. If I can't do quasi-historical things without delving into the underbelly of a game system, I just won't do it.

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/16/2019 4:03:42 PM   
Flaviusx


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Why is it gamey? This is how you got luftwaffe field divisions in real life.

I just wish you could also disband naval units. (Which is how you get Soviet naval rifle brigades.)

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/16/2019 4:04:35 PM >


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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/17/2019 5:34:35 AM   
shri

 

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I am a total NOOB and i struggled with the 2 Panzers to knock Poland in a month. I took Poznan and Lodz easily but Krakow is a tough nut (the river and supply issues) and Warsaw saw my 2 northern corps get cut off by Poles and i wasted 1 turn. Anyway thanks to intense Luftwaffe bombing, Warsaw fell in early October.

Q: How do you guys approach Poland?

P.S.: I was simultaneously attacking Denmark and Netherlands (both from late September), Denmark was a success and Netherlands was a WW1 grind.

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/17/2019 2:00:44 PM   
tyronec


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Read some of the AARs, it can be done in 2 turns well enough using 1 Panzer corps.

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/17/2019 8:48:55 PM   
Chocolino


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Thanks for the many good comments.

Here is what I learned so far from the current approach (basically as stated already by several of you above).

- you don't need 2 Panzerkorps for Poland, but one is essential (you can do it reasonably quickly without tanks but you need more dice rolling luck than I have had in this game, and who wants to rely on luck only).

- yes, I noticed the hard way that Belgium V1.3 is a bit tougher now. Also once a reasonable unit sits as defender in Brussels it is almost impossible to take the city from across the river from just 3 hexes - regardless of how much oil you let the Luftwaffe burn. This early in the game you don't have access to many engineers/infiltrators yet. I needed to take Brussels on the first attempt - which I failed at - and from there things went downhill.

- Weather is the main deciding factor how fast you can reach the French border. With a kind autumn much can happen. When it is heavy rain or even just regular rain you may often save your gasfuel and shoe leather as losses mount quickly.

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/17/2019 8:59:18 PM   
Chocolino


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11-24-39

The French violate the national integrity of Luxembourg and invade the helpless country using only a thinly veiled pretext.

quote:


Rumors have it that France and Great Britain have offered assistance to Luxembourg, in defending that small nation's sovereignty against the kind of brutality that Germany has shown to the world, in Poland, the Netherlands, and Belgium.


But their attempt to connect to and free the "Rhineland Rapers" cavalry fails so far. Only a thin screen of German infantry is standing between the poilus and the Fatherland. We hope the "RR" fail to forage for fodder and run out of steam soon.





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< Message edited by Chocolino -- 12/17/2019 9:03:21 PM >

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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/17/2019 9:14:37 PM   
Chocolino


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11-24-39

Lodz falls and Poland surrenders - it took a very long time even considering the voluntary deployment changes. The last Polish marauders will vanish as well. Now we have some more troops to work with - but it is too late in the year for that to be particularly helpful. I will not use this opening gambit any more in future games - only with some significant upgrades.

But then I don't think it did any lasting harm to the German cause either.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/17/2019 9:22:19 PM   
Chocolino


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12-8-39

The French have taken over much of the lines in Belgium. (Like in WW2 - but unfortunately Guderian is not crossing the Meuse at Sedan right now to cut them off).

The French are a bit tougher to beat than the Belgians. But on the flip side - once and if Brussels falls all Belgians will vanish without me having to fight them.

The Rhineland Raiders have been eliminated.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/17/2019 9:29:30 PM   
Chocolino


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12-22-39

Heavy rain again - the Germans need to take a much needed rest day anyways - especially the tanks were exhausted. We redeploy some units and will take it a bit easier from now on.

The British strategic bombing campaign continues unabated - fairly severe production losses actually. To counter this I have built quite a lot of AA and hope it will be online soon.




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RE: Revanchism in Europe (PBEM gwgardner vs Chocolino) - 12/17/2019 9:51:35 PM   
Flaviusx


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There is a certain opportunity cost in a delayed Polish contest. From what I can tell, once you annex Poland, this raises German production by about 20 points, or a 10% increase. It's not a lot, but it adds up. That's a flak point right there.

If it was possible to force a quickie Belgian surrender, that opportunity cost would be well worth paying. But...not likely. So the orthodox 2 turn Polish conquest ends up being the best bet, with perhaps a Danish and Dutch sidedish to round it out.

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