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RE: Update v4.1.0.40

 
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RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/16/2019 2:01:10 PM   
Shadrach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Try deleting the scenarios in the Programs path and see if that ends the duplicates.


Yes it does - kind of obvious isn't it?

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Post #: 61
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/16/2019 3:03:54 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadrach


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Anther however...if you copy the bmp files from the TOAW install to the Documents folder all of the bmp files appear as they should.


Yes - the game looks in the Documents folder, but NOT the Programs folder as it also should.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Remember back when .20 was released and we did all of this: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4564492

That is probably when the problem first appeared because the Documents folder for TOAW was populated with empty scenario folders. I'm just guessing here but it makes sense.


That's exactly what we did. The full .20 installer does NOT place any scenarios in the Documents folder. Which is correct.

After the .40 patch the game does NOT look in the Programs folder as it should. That's the bug we're looking at here. COPYING the BMP/DOC files to the Documents folder will be a workaround. However, also copying the SCE files will cause the game to show scenarios twice in the list - which it should not. Any SCE files in the Documents folder should override and present in Programs.



But why complicate things? Simply put it all in the Documents folder. The program has to look in one place only and the search time is much reduced. If I recall some people were confused because the scenario folders were in the Documents folder. So all in all nothing has been resolved by splitting things between two folders because there is still confusion. Just keep it simple and use one folder for existing scenarios and editing scenarios and everything associated with them. Keeping things simple is always the best way to go when addressing a large and diverse group with vastly different levels of computer experience.


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Post #: 62
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/16/2019 3:18:30 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Status: online 		It's complicated by the requirements for Steam - which requires everything to be in the Program Files path.

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Post #: 63
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/16/2019 3:29:39 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

It's complicated by the requirements for Steam - which requires everything to be in the Program Files path.


And simple branch would handle that.

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Post #: 64
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/16/2019 3:59:14 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1987
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

It's complicated by the requirements for Steam - which requires everything to be in the Program Files path.


Yea but that isn't the documents path, so why is that one used or better still used?
Furthermore why does the program recreate files there?
I deleted music & fonts under documents and on next start they where back although all of them are also in the game directory.

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Post #: 65
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/16/2019 4:06:18 PM   
Shadrach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
Furthermore why does the program recreate files there?
I deleted music & fonts under documents and on next start they where back although all of them are also in the game directory.


Yeah, I've noticed that too.
My guess it's some code inherited from ancient times and probably there was a reason for it back then

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Post #: 66
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/16/2019 10:01:51 PM   
demyansk


Posts: 2723
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Status: offline 		I don't play much but thanks for keeping the game relevant.

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Post #: 67
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/17/2019 2:16:45 PM   
Shadrach


Posts: 722
Joined: 10/16/2001
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline 		Just noticed the "duplicate scenario" issue also applies to some of the default shipped scenarios. For instance a couple in WWII - Mediterranean is affected:

Crete - Operation Merkur 1941.sce
Crete - Operation Merkur 1941 v.4.0.sce
Malta - Operazione C3 1942.sce
Malta - Operazione C3 1942 v.2.0.sce

Can select the first one but not the second. However if you have a scroll-wheel mouse you can move to the second. Not sure how to tell what scenario is actually loaded when doing so though.

I'd say this is probably related to the changes in fix #20:
"20. “New Game” button will find the latest scenario version to run from multiple directories."
I assume the game is supposed to find the latest version based on the file name but this fails somehow and instead it just lists both files.

Bob: Would there be any point in reporting these issues to Matrix Support, or are you taking note of them for a future patch/hotfix? I'm not interested in the usual endless back-and-forth with support which usually happens

Specifically these issues:
1. Game does not display DOCs/BMPs for scenarios located in the Program Files directory.
2. Scenarios located in both Program Files and in Documents will be listed twice and second cannot be selected.
3. Scenarios with different versions are displayed twice (probably related to above issue).



< Message edited by Shadrach -- 12/17/2019 2:17:33 PM >

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Post #: 68
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/17/2019 3:12:46 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1987
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Status: offline 		Just wonder how the game wants to know which is the latest version. Simply by looking at the file dates?

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Post #: 69
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 4:20:49 PM   
bru888


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Status: offline 		So, I gather the following is an accurate summary:

Note: At some point during the patch process, the focus for Documents was shifted from the program directory to My Documents. The problem is, the documents remain in the program directory along with the scenario files.

To fix this, MOVE (not copy) all folders in C:\Program Files (x86)\Matrix Games\The Operational Art of War IV\Scenarios to C:\Users\[name]\Documents\My Games\The Operational Art of War IV\Scenarios.

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Post #: 70
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 5:36:59 PM   
Shadrach


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From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline 		bru888: Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Note that this only applies to the DOC (doc, pdf, txt etc) and BMP files, not the actual SCE files. The BMPs are just cosmetic, and for the DOCs one can always open the document manually. But for simplicity it's best to just move the entire folder.

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Post #: 71
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 6:07:45 PM   
george420


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Status: offline 		Really nice, thanks!

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Post #: 72
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 6:45:26 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1987
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		Still, I'm currently in a state where I mistrust the game to load the files that are needed to work like intended.
These problems started at least a year ago and are still not solved.
A pity that it has come so far but it is as it is.

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Post #: 73
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 7:12:05 PM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Still, I'm currently in a state where I mistrust the game to load the files that are needed to work like intended.
These problems started at least a year ago and are still not solved.
A pity that it has come so far but it is as it is.


I’ve re-organized the active files into the My Games folder as mentioned in posts #69 and #70. De-activated the TOAW program file by renaming it. Docs work, BMPs work and duplicates are gone. We may not be in as bad of shape as we thought. Suggest you give it a try.

Regards, RhinoBones


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Post #: 74
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 8:42:00 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12642
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bru888

So, I gather the following is an accurate summary:

Note: At some point during the patch process, the focus for Documents was shifted from the program directory to My Documents. The problem is, the documents remain in the program directory along with the scenario files.

To fix this, MOVE (not copy) all folders in C:\Program Files (x86)\Matrix Games\The Operational Art of War IV\Scenarios to C:\Users\[name]\Documents\My Games\The Operational Art of War IV\Scenarios.

That's assuming you are one of the people who don't have the original 4.0.0.11 installation file.

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Post #: 75
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 8:55:39 PM   
Shadrach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
That's assuming you are one of the people who don't have the original 4.0.0.11 installation file.


Well, if you DO have it, and you install from scratch using it, then patch all the way to 4.1.0.40 without deleting the scenarios in Documents (as we were told to do when 4.1.0.20 came out), you will be stuck with the following:

1. Duplicate scenarios in the list, where every second is not selectable.

2. Possible loading of older and unpatched scenarios instead of the updated ones that have come since.

Actually I will test #2 now by seeing what scenario is actually loaded when you have duplicates.
EDIT: Tested, and it does look like the file with the newest timestamp is loaded if duplicates are found. So #2 is out I guess - as long as they are updated. But I still would have expected any scenario in Documents should override any in Program Files.


< Message edited by Shadrach -- 12/18/2019 9:17:30 PM >

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Post #: 76
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 9:03:45 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12642
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadrach

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
That's assuming you are one of the people who don't have the original 4.0.0.11 installation file.


Well, if you DO have it, and you install from scratch using it, then patch all the way to 4.1.0.40 without deleting the scenarios in Documents (as we were told to do when 4.1.0.20 came out), you will be stuck with the following:

1. Duplicate scenarios in the list, where every second is not selectable. [


No. Duplicates only if there are two with the same dates, evidently.

quote:

2. Possible loading of older and unpatched scenarios instead of the updated ones that have come since.

Actually I will test #2 now by seeing what scenario is actually loaded when you have duplicates.


No. Older ones are ignored.

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Post #: 77
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 9:23:44 PM   
Shadrach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
No. Older ones are ignored.


Doesn't look like it to me. 

 Directory of f:\Games\The Operational Art of War IV\Scenarios\WW II - West Front

18.12.2019  23:19           264 678 Remagen.bmp
18.12.2019  23:19           874 359 Remagen.sce
               2 File(s)      1 139 037 bytes

 Directory of C:\Users\Stian\Documents\My Games\The Operational Art of War IV\Scenarios\WW II - West Front

04.08.2010  03:03           264 678 Remagen.bmp
20.11.2017  01:29           874 359 Remagen.sce
               2 File(s)      1 139 037 bytes

Still the list shows both:



But YES - the newer one is what will be LOADED.


< Message edited by Shadrach -- 12/18/2019 9:50:14 PM >

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Post #: 78
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 10:27:59 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12642
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online 		Well, I've got the 4.0.0.11 installed in the Documents path and the 4.1.0.40 installed in the Steam path and no duplicates:




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 79
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 10:59:53 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1987
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Status: offline 		I guess it can't be the solution to install 2 different version under different paths to get rid of whatever causes these problems.

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Post #: 80
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/18/2019 11:21:00 PM   
Shadrach


Posts: 722
Joined: 10/16/2001
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline 		I tested with the Steam version as well: 

 Directory of f:\Games\Steam\steamapps\common\The Operational Art of War IV\Scenarios\Hypothetical Studies

19.12.2019  00:39           358 646 Anonymous Heroics (PBEM).SCE
19.12.2019  00:39           382 596 Blitzkrieg 1950.SCE
19.12.2019  00:39           205 063 Deep Battle 1930.SCE
19.12.2019  00:39           162 385 Mobile operations.sce
19.12.2019  00:39           583 678 Revisionist War 1937.SCE
               5 File(s)      1 692 368 bytes

 Directory of c:\Users\Stian\Documents\My Games\The Operational Art of War IV\Scenarios\Hypothetical Studies

19.12.2019  00:39           358 646 Anonymous Heroics (PBEM).SCE
19.12.2019  00:39           382 596 Blitzkrieg 1950.SCE
19.12.2019  00:39           205 063 Deep Battle 1930.SCE
19.12.2019  00:39           162 385 Mobile operations.sce
19.12.2019  00:39           583 678 Revisionist War 1937.SCE
               5 File(s)      1 692 368 bytes


Still getting duplicates. But note the last one - Revisionist War. It's not duplicated, and I've noticed this in the other lists as well. Something is deeply wrong with the code that makes these lists.


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Post #: 81
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/20/2019 7:38:13 PM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Still, I'm currently in a state where I mistrust the game to load the files that are needed to work like intended.
These problems started at least a year ago and are still not solved.
A pity that it has come so far but it is as it is.


You are not alone in your thinking.
These are the types of issues that turn people off.
And those are bad things.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game and am thrilled for a new patch.
But for me, I don't want to have to perform a computer ballet,
just to get a freaking game to work.

Not my problem. I'll stick w/ my .21 patch until it all gets worked out.

Or until TOAW V. YMMV!

< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 12/20/2019 7:43:13 PM >

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Post #: 82
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/20/2019 9:15:34 PM   
Shadrach


Posts: 722
Joined: 10/16/2001
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline 		My biggest problem at the moment is how things are communicated (or maybe the lack of it), and that the burden of proof when it comes to bugs seems to *always* be on the customer. Now I like doing detective work (as you might tell), and I have the tools to do it, but it tends to get really frustrating in the end when I'm simply not believed.

The way it should work is that when a user reports a possible error, every effort should be made to reproduce the issue on an installation as similar as possible, so that it can be fixed on the developer side. Instead what we get is a bunch of workarounds and "it works on my machine so obviously you're doing it wrong".

When trying to reproduce an issue, you can't just base it on your own non-standard custom installation. If the only files users have available are the base install and the patch, any testing must be done with this as a base, not some other installation that for some miracle reason works because it's set up in a "special" way. And don't tell users to install the original CD because most users these days *don't* have even a install CD

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Post #: 83
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/20/2019 9:42:05 PM   
Hellen_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadrach

My biggest problem at the moment is how things are communicated (or maybe the lack of it), and that the burden of proof when it comes to bugs seems to *always* be on the customer. ... it tends to get really frustrating ....

... what we get is a bunch of workarounds and "it works on my machine so obviously you're doing it wrong".

....any testing must be done with this as a base, not some other installation that for some miracle reason works because it's set up in a "special" way. And don't tell users to install the original CD because most users these days *don't* have even a install CD



Sharing your pain here, I *do* have an install CD (for which I paid #100# for, and for the hard manual. And yet now, the CD is obsolete, and the manual ... well, it is what it is.

For me, it is a great game. Hell, I have from TOAWII discs all the way up to now, and it is disconcerting now to me that we have download / uninstall / reinstall and do all sorts of contortions to get the "new stuff".

I *PAID* for TOAW IV, out the wazoo at #100, now it is on sale in "STEAM" for twenty bucks. That's ok, I took my chance, I am glad for it, but at the same time, the support now is sorely lacking. In the mean time, I play my version for all that it is worth, and that is A LOT. I have enjoyed Bob Cross's CfNA scene, the FitEs, all the D21s, for hours upon hours.

All I am saying here is, that it is a good purchase, for me and for those who like this sort of thing. For others, they may not like it so much, for many reasons, and I understand that.

Let's hope that TOAW V will fix a lot of things that we need.

YMMV!

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Post #: 84
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/20/2019 10:36:18 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith
Let's hope that TOAW V will fix a lot of things that we need.

I've seen this sentiment expressed a lot on this forum, and don't understand it...why should we have to wait several years for another paid version to fix things broken in the last version we paid for? Sorry, that's not right!

How about the developers fix the bugs in this version via timely and free patches?

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Post #: 85
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/21/2019 8:47:38 AM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
...

How about the developers fix the bugs in this version via timely and free patches?


I think it needs to be said, as unpleasant as it is, the ability might just not be there.

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Post #: 86
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/21/2019 11:06:56 AM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 1987
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Status: offline 		The ability is surely there, I see a lack of coordination & communication that is the main problem.
Larry said in a different thread that there is no coordination as what to play & do for the Beta testers.
So what can one expect if all just play along and likely do not clean the system and start with a fresh installation of TOAWIV + patch to see how it works.

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Post #: 87
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/21/2019 11:59:26 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima
I think it needs to be said, as unpleasant as it is, the ability might just not be there.

You might well be right, but then I guess we can stop talking about TOAW V as well...

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Post #: 88
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/21/2019 2:28:10 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima
I think it needs to be said, as unpleasant as it is, the ability might just not be there.

You might well be right, but then I guess we can stop talking about TOAW V as well...


As long as the game functions being added by Bob are not packaged as TOAWV and are instead handed out when each is completed we are safe from TOAWV. I never want to see a TOAWV. TOAWIV.x is just fine with me.

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Post #: 89
RE: Update v4.1.0.40 - 12/21/2019 3:55:37 PM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
...
So what can one expect if all just play along and likely do not clean the system and start with a fresh installation of TOAWIV + patch to see how it works.


I did just that, guess what, I cannot save units in the editor.

Also, if you look at this thread people are being told to install a version that is not even available for download on the matrix webpage to try and solve the issues they are finding.

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Post #: 90
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