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Some idea for hunter-killer and info-sharing

 
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Some idea for hunter-killer and info-sharing - 12/9/2019 5:35:40 AM   
exsonic01

 

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As far as I know, CM series has this feature. This is just suggestion for future. This feature will not be an easy task to add, and will involve a lot of works to implement into AB, so think of this post as just future possibility.

While I was think about AMX-30, I think it would be great to have natural and realistic hunter-killer feature and info-sharing across units and formations. Player can see all new enemy contact with "god's eye view" but that never means all units on the field should share the same information on real-time. There should be time delay for the recognition of new contact for all other units. During cold war era, there were nothing like FBCB-2 system (and even FBCB-2 system is not perfect). Everything was based on radio communication. Miscommunication, jamming or too far distance, etc... can make a lot of problem regarding communication, detailed order, and description/explanation of situation. I think I wrote this while I wrote about the importance of command delay in this forum and steam forum (https://steamcommunity.com/app/1089840/discussions/0/1644304412653468942/ and http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4711206 )

Anyway, during cold war, such info sharing would be very slow.

This is what I briefly thought:
1) OOB should be a tree structure. Regiment / brigade HQ - Battalion HQs - Company HQs - Platoon HQs. This will create a lot of works, but this will make game more realistic.
2) Distinguish / categorize the new contact of enemy or unidentified (yellow icon) units, depending on which unit received the information.
3) Then, flow of information from upper to lower and from lower to upper branch of OOB should have some time to communicate and digest. Let's assume it would take one minute for information to go from lower branch to upper branch, and go upper to lower branch.
4) In this case, as an example, if a member of platoon 1/A/25th/2nd detected enemy tanks,
--a) his platoon (1st platoon) would be able to see yellow icon immediately.
--b) All member in A company will take 2 minutes to see yellow icon (1 minute to report to Company HQ, and 1 minute to share info to other platoon HQs).
--c) All member in 25th battalion will take 4 minutes to see yellow icon (1 minute to report to Company HQ, 1 minute to report to battalion HQ, 1 minute to share info to other company HQs, and 1 more minutes to share info to other platoon HQs of other company)
--d) And lastly, all member of 2nd regiment (or brigade) will take 6 minutes to see yellow icon. (1 minute to report to Company HQ, 1 minute to report to battalion HQ, 1 minute to report to regiment HQ, 1 minute to share info to other battalion HQs. 1 minute to share info to other company HQs, 1 more minutes to share info to other platoon HQs)
5) 1 minute is just an example, it can be adjusted to be shorter. But important thing is, all cold war communication was the radio communication or vocal communication or hand signal. It should take some time to explain what is going on and share the info to others. This info sharing delay would be the same across the time frame of cold war, as 65~91 all used radios as main communication method. FBCB appeared far later after 1991. (FBCB2 was first used in actual military operations in the former Yugoslavia in 1998) In the future, with modern war version of AB, any units with FBCB2 or similar system (like Russian Constellation) would have very good bonus on info sharing time. This is what CMBS featured.
6) Yellow icon will make slight bonus on detection / recognition of target unit. If the target unit of yellow icon moves, bonus of detection / recognition time will reduced depending on moving distance of target. In this case, slow info sharing or too old information wouldn't be valued that much. This yellow icon feature is already implemented in AB from the beginning.
7) EW will increase time for info sharing.
8) Absence or KIA of HQ will increase time for info sharing to corresponding sub units under OOB.
9) Battalion recon / regimental recon will reduce info sharing time as they don't take too much process of info sharing following tree OOB structure. Direct HQ observation will also reduce info sharing time. This way, recon operation will be much more important.
10) This info-sharing feature can be used to show the hunter-killer tactics / doctrine across different units.
11) Any forward observer unit with proper gear should have big bonus (or exception) on info-sharing time to highest HQ or artilellery HQ.
12) This info-sharing feature can be helpful to describe friendly fire feature, which I discussed in other post. (https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4726109)



< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 1/15/2020 8:32:35 PM >
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RE: Some idea for hunter-killer and info-sharing - 12/12/2019 12:15:58 AM   
nikolas93TS


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Currently, the primary issue for the info-sharing feature is not the implementation of the system in itself, but rather the spotting rules which are quite harsh. I am starting to think that some of the planned features might even require a new engine in form of a stand-alone release, with a new, fresh database as the size of the current one is becoming a bit of a liability in terms of workload when changing.

Regarding the point n°1, this is one of the Order of Battle ideas I fancy a lot. Keep in mind, we are not working on this (yet), it is just a proposal.


It would be also useful for adding units like Division Daguet and their specially modified AMX-30 or overseas forces which were not used on mainland. Current obstacle are 11 factions each with 27 time span: that is a huge number of historical OOBs. Also, company formations wound need deep modifications compared to current system.

(in reply to exsonic01)
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RE: Some idea for hunter-killer and info-sharing - 12/12/2019 1:42:10 AM   
22sec

 

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Reinforcements? 🧐

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RE: Some idea for hunter-killer and info-sharing - 12/12/2019 1:47:30 AM   
exsonic01

 

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From: Somewhere deep in appalachian valley in PA
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Oh my, that OOB looks awesome and promising!! We all would wish to see this in the future, hopefully.

I agree that spotting rule of AB is harsh indeed, and that is why I play AB really slow, especially assault scenarios. This is also a reason why I favor meeting engagement - I can bring faster tempo and phase transition during meeting engagement, though the chance for meeting engagement situation during hypothetical hot cold war would be a smaller than assault / defense situation. I guess a lot of other players might feels the same.

I'm not sure what you guys are thinking regarding spotting / detection / recognition, but we all wish the best for AB. I'm also OK with current status of spotting, but probably a little bit better spotting might be a better choice for the speed/phase of the game. But AI's compatibility and realism also should be considered.

Meanwhile, I think info-sharing feature and tactical hunter-killer tactics will shine under harsh spotting rules (and also under less harsh spotting rules of course), by implementing some bonus to spotting to already-detected-enemies or yellow-icons. Those features will increase the importance of recon and proper operation of detecting units with GSR or thermal sight. But now this will bring the issue of 'proper AI' for such features...

I agree with company formation - but I agree this will be a tough challenge too, especially for AI behavior. I wish I could share any idea about this...

How about open a braining storming place in this forum or in other better visualization websites, to openly gather idea and discuss about detection/spotting system and company formation & OOB? For AB, I think the most important thing would be how could AI be prepared for such features, as AB considers AI-player balance seriously. Any idea about AI's algorithm would be great. I guess other players will share their idea if you open some sort of brainstorming post.

I agree about the difficulty regarding making OOB & database work. That is one of the reason why I think it would be better to limit time frame for Korean war mod. But regarding historical OOBs, I would say, try not to fall into too much details. I guess it would be better to concentrate to depict "general" or "typical" formations first, and then add "historical OOBs" later, plus let players add historical OOBs by modding. Good "general" or "typical" formations would work as a good guideline for any future "historical OOBs". Current AB's OOB is not realistic, but modifying the current system in the form of tree structure with "typical" OOB for each decade (60s, 70s, 80s, 90s) would be a good starting point. Then, you guys and maybe some other players might add more "historical OOBs" for specific conflict or specific time frame or etc.

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 12/12/2019 1:49:40 AM >

(in reply to nikolas93TS)
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RE: Some idea for hunter-killer and info-sharing - 12/12/2019 6:27:01 AM   
Policefreak55

 

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This is everything I envision, at least when I always talk about an OOB re-work... this is the greatest thing I have ever seen. Bra-freaking-vo fellas, I hope this proposal gets through and put into production.

Now when you use the phrase "new engine in form of a stand-alone release"... are we talking what I think we're talking about here?

(in reply to nikolas93TS)
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RE: Some idea for hunter-killer and info-sharing - 12/30/2019 1:16:56 AM   
Perturabo


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Force structure would be great. Very important feature.

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RE: Some idea for hunter-killer and info-sharing - 10/29/2020 11:00:38 PM   
CSO_Talorgan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Force structure would be great. Very important feature.


+1

(in reply to Perturabo)
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