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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/5/2019 7:01:32 PM   
jmlima

 

Posts: 592
Joined: 3/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem
... Each release has been leaps and bounds beyond the last (at least as far as scenario design tools go).

...


I would caveat that by saying that the editor in it's current form is not superior to TOAW3, at best it would be similar, but since many of the export / import / save functions are broken, it's worse.

Unless you are referring to the game as a design tool, then yes, each release has been theoretically incrementally better, but I wonder why every-time I read the playtest forum I go back to TOAW 3 as being something I can trust much more not to have broken functions behind the hood.

(in reply to Raindem)
Post #: 61
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/5/2019 7:14:05 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4057
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		To be fair TOAWIII had a much larger team working on it and it had just been purchased from Talonsoft so the code wasn't as far different as the original. Now the 'team' is two people with one of the two working on it only some of the time and not seeming to care about it most of the time.

I guess it should come as no surprise that this seems like the period of time between 3.4 and 4.1. Years of waiting for something that should have taken 80% less time.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 12/5/2019 7:16:36 PM >

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Post #: 62
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/5/2019 7:18:56 PM   
DD696

 

Posts: 888
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From: near Savannah, Ga
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

the first order of business should be (IMHO) to fix TOAW

There had been a major effort in the Development Forum to affect some change and get TOAW on the right track. I can't speak to specifics but the result is nothing is going to happen. Don't misunderstand, TOAW is not dead, it is constantly being worked on.

My opinion, and my interest in another project is fired by the fact that, TOAW development has been stagnant for fifteen years or more. Every couple years we get a little bit of a new version that will include some new content along with some new bugs. My contention is that for the best game in the history of gaming, this record is completely unacceptable. And this is wholly a result of TOAW being selfishly held hostage by the current developer. I could say a few other things, but it wouldn't change anything, we've already been thru it all on the Development Forum. I'm not satisfied going to my grave knowing that more could have been done.


I think everyone interested in this game should pay careful attention to what sPzAbt653 says.

I will also say that if anyone has any interest in helping to create a game from the ground up to contact larryfulkerson via PM. If the developer refuses to do anything, and Slitherine refuses to plant a firm kick on the developer's non moving posterior to get it moving, then perhaps those of us who value the concept of the game can work together to create a much better product.

Edited for a missing word.

< Message edited by DD696 -- 12/5/2019 8:46:54 PM >

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Post #: 63
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/5/2019 7:47:47 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 688
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		So should I go back to TOAW 3 ?

There seems to be a sudden outbreak of people who I thought supported the game ranting at Matrix and saying they'll build a new game.

I'm only an occasional player, and of small scenarios, but annually I seem to say that I really must get to know TOAW better and as I downloaded some large pack of old scenarios perhaps I should just play them with TOAW 3.

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Post #: 64
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/5/2019 7:50:52 PM   
DD696

 

Posts: 888
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline 		We all must make our own choices.

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Post #: 65
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/5/2019 10:40:22 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9237
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

There seems to be a sudden outbreak

You haven't noticed, this has been going on for years. Its tiring, and many/most of the best and brightest TOAW minds have moved on to other projects/games.

quote:

perhaps I should just play them with TOAW 3.

I've played games with IV and don't see any reason to avoid doing so. The Original UI is still available, and the Original Graphics can for the most part be used although it takes a little effort. It's not necessary to use the Original stuff, as you can see by the AAR's that some are using the new stuff.

Plus, IV does have the Jump Map

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 66
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/8/2019 6:12:52 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3320
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Whoauu... This is insurrection. Developing a game can be hard. We need to think about plenty of things:
. database
. graphics
. sounds
. combat rules
. AI
. and testing mechanisms

Could be interesting indeed.

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Post #: 67
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/8/2019 6:35:51 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3320
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Regarding the combat rules and the outcome of a battle (I think this is the most important just before AI), you should read couple of things:

a. Understanding War from Trevor Dupuy
b. Military Power from Stephen Biddle
c. War by Numbers from Christopher Lawrence

Very interesting reading to:
1. understand the formulas to code for your combat engine
2. guide your schema for the equipment database that you will need to implement


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 68
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/8/2019 7:37:41 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4306
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: online 		Thanks for the tips, looks interesting!

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Post #: 69
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/8/2019 7:57:35 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Regarding the combat rules and the outcome of a battle (I think this is the most important just before AI), you should read couple of things:

a. Understanding War from Trevor Dupuy
b. Military Power from Stephen Biddle
c. War by Numbers from Christopher Lawrence

Very interesting reading to:
1. understand the formulas to code for your combat engine
2. guide your schema for the equipment database that you will need to implement



You don't really have to design a wargame like TOAW from scratch. Nigel Askey did it for you. Start with Volume I. http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-book/volume-i-the-project-concepts-and-general-structure-and-analysing-weapon-system-effectiveness/

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Post #: 70
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/8/2019 10:07:25 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1780
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

So should I go back to TOAW 3 ?

There seems to be a sudden outbreak of people who I thought supported the game ranting at Matrix and saying they'll build a new game.

I'm only an occasional player, and of small scenarios, but annually I seem to say that I really must get to know TOAW better and as I downloaded some large pack of old scenarios perhaps I should just play them with TOAW 3.


IMHO: Yes and No.

For me, I am a refugee from TOAWII / ACOW days, and I never really had any solid time investment blok to really learn the game back then. I did manage to design a very small scenario for ACOW, which even then had some kindly reviews (alas, I lost that scenario, so it is somewhere in Gehanna now....) ... if anyone still has my "To the Rescue" scene somewhere, I would very much like to get a copy of it. ANYWAY,

I even bought TOAW III years ago, but never installed it. Now that I have the time to investigate all those scenarios for III (and there are a BOATLOAD of them) I find that I spend all of my time now playing TOAW IV, so III is still on the back burner for me.

It is what it is. I continue to think that efforts to "jump ship" are misplaced and that Matrix / Slitherine might respond to honeyed prods. However, any new game should (I think) have a robust PBEM / Multiplayer aspect. My candlewick right now is trying to get the Slitherine "plus plus PBEM" ironed out and working properly.

Good luck with the project!

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 71
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/8/2019 11:37:24 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4306
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
You don't really have to design a wargame like TOAW from scratch. Nigel Askey did it for you.

I've read that his "model" or whatever won't come out until his last book, which I understand might be a ways off? Would Volume I be interesting for this kind of thing?

I've been looking at his books for some time but have been put off by the price, although now I see that the Kindle version of Volume I is only $14, so pretty reasonable...

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 72
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/9/2019 2:12:54 AM   
Simon Edmonds

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 5/10/2018
Status: offline 		It is weird how this thread has gone off in a tangent in the last week. It's a bit like somebody say's "we can make a better tyre for this car", and a group rushes off to invent a wheel to put it on.
Remember. THERE IS NOT MUCH WRONG WITH TOAW IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Yes I would like to see some changes. But not at the cost of a war with Matrix. I think we should offer to take the antiquated code from Matrix. Convert it to modern code; without changing anything. And then give it back. That gives everyone a concrete foundation to work from. I'm sure both Matrix and the developers would be more motivated towards improvements it there is a modern code to work from.
I am retired, and I spend about 6 hours a day, 7 days a week, playing wargames or researching war history. I have some background in computing and a basic understanding of programming. I for one would be willing to put my hand up to help if the owners and developers are interested in going in this direction.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 73
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/9/2019 3:07:11 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
You don't really have to design a wargame like TOAW from scratch. Nigel Askey did it for you.

I've read that his "model" or whatever won't come out until his last book, which I understand might be a ways off? Would Volume I be interesting for this kind of thing?

I've been looking at his books for some time but have been put off by the price, although now I see that the Kindle version of Volume I is only $14, so pretty reasonable...


Volume one does a lot of the work of developing a war game. But of course it isn't the whole thing. One of the more complex things in a war game is the development of a weapons systems attributes, how those weapon systems interact with one another, building a database that can compare all of the weapons systems with one another..yada yada yada. I really don't think people quite have a grasp on what is involved. It's not like a science fiction game where you can make stuff up. And even the solid science behind all of the weapons testing doesn't doesn't agree from one source to another. Volume one helps a lot in that regard and following volumes takes the formulas and presents them in a hard format for each nation. If a weapon system isn't there then the formulas will allow someone to come up with the proper numbers for that weapon system. I'm not a math guy and never will be so I've not tried myself.

As far as making a complex war game that doesn't need a manual of some kind, good luck with that.

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Post #: 74
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/9/2019 5:38:11 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4306
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simon Edmonds
Yes I would like to see some changes. But not at the cost of a war with Matrix.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call this a "war" with Matrix... I'd be happy for Matrix in general, and TOAW in particular, to do very well. But the complete lack of communication has made me despair of seeing any changes in the foreseeable future, much less those that I'd personally like to see.

I hope that Matrix takes you up on your offer to help, and that in that event you (or someone else) will then deign to let the rest of us know what is going on.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 12/9/2019 2:39:00 PM >

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Post #: 75
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/9/2019 5:40:10 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4306
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
One of the more complex things in a war game is the development of a weapons systems attributes, how those weapon systems interact with one another, building a database that can compare all of the weapons systems with one another..yada yada yada. I really don't think people quite have a grasp on what is involved.

I know that I don't! I just ordered the Kindle version of Volume I, will take a look.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 76
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/9/2019 1:53:52 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9237
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Again guys, read my posts here if you haven't. Nothing is going to change with the progress TOAW. I've put too many of my years into attempts to improve it, and it is time to move on.

I have no issue with Matrix, they have no control over TOAW, it's not their fault. I've had good relations with a few folks there. I see no reason why some negative comments have been made about them. Of course, I don't know what others know, and no one knows what I know, so to each our own.

If a future reality holds a new game, it will need a publisher/distributor. What then, steam? omg.

(in reply to Simon Edmonds)
Post #: 77
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/9/2019 9:23:43 PM   
fogger

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 9/17/2006
Status: offline 		Has anybody approached Matrix about doing the new game? They already have the infrastructure in place. They are probably just as ticked off as everybody else about the lack of process. If "key" people (Steve, Bob, ??) have good relations with some of the people at Martix why burn bridges? I am sure that if there is a dollar to be made they will be in it.

Bob has not commented here but I am sure he (and the people at Matrix) have read the above posts. It would appear to me that Bob is working his butt off trying to fix TOAW. I think he would have a good idea of what is involved in starting a new game.

I am no programmer but to me it appears that if all the resources that would have to be sunk into a new game were applied to TOAW we would end up a "Roll Royce" of games. Why will Matrix not allow this to happen? They do own the game don't they?

Why are we going to "destroy the village to save it"?




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Post #: 78
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/9/2019 10:11:59 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4306
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger
I am no programmer but to me it appears that if all the resources that would have to be sunk into a new game were applied to TOAW we would end up a "Roll Royce" of games.

Yes and no. While TOAW is clearly an advanced game, AFAIK it is also based on 20 year old code, which might be considerably harder to work on than something new. Dunno..

quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger
Why will Matrix not allow this to happen? They do own the game don't they?

Well, that's the big question. If Matrix is following this game at all (not especially obvious), they could either post here seeking help or reach out to individuals. AFAIK that's not happened, who knows why?

quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger
Why are we going to "destroy the village to save it"?

Honestly I don't think it is quite fair to accuse the players of destroying the game, or even wanting to... First of all, nothing is being destroyed. Second, Matrix/the dev team hasn't released a much-awaited patch for eons and has basically totally stopped communicating with the player base about the game. Third, if Matrix wanted player help with the game, it could reach out for it. But instead...crickets.

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Post #: 79
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/9/2019 11:56:02 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4057
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Honestly I don't think it is quite fair to accuse the players of destroying the game, or even wanting to... First of all, nothing is being destroyed. Second, Matrix/the dev team hasn't released a much-awaited patch for eons and has basically totally stopped communicating with the player base about the game. Third, if Matrix wanted player help with the game, it could reach out for it. But instead...crickets.


Delete Matrix from the comments and insert the dev and you have a statement and that's closer to the truth.

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Post #: 80
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/10/2019 1:54:08 AM   
fogger

 

Posts: 1413
Joined: 9/17/2006
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quote:

Honestly I don't think it is quite fair to accuse the players of destroying the game, or even wanting to... First of all, nothing is being destroyed. Second, Matrix/the dev team hasn't released a much-awaited patch for eons and has basically totally stopped communicating with the player base about the game. Third, if Matrix wanted player help with the game, it could reach out for it. But instead...crickets.


I think you are reading something into my comment that was not intended.

I have not accused anybody of "destroying" the game. But if we go off and start building a new game from starch a point will come where Matrix will say stuff it and drop TOAW. Then if the new project falls over we are between a rock and a hard place.

This happened with a program I use to run my SMSF. The lead programmer left and the owner of the company had trouble getting a replacement. On the that product's forum people started bitching about paying for support which was very slow in coming and then lack of updates. The owner then said after 13 years they were ceasing support for the program and all the best for the future.

I do not want matrix to do that.

Yes I think Matrix can and should do more on the communication side. Something / anything is better than crickets. The person who has taken over from Tamas is yet to post anything. Not a good sign. If he has not taken ownership of the product he may use the comments on this forum to report back up the line that we (matrix) may be better off financially if we kill TOAW now.

Remember at the end of the day it is all about dollars.

One of my sons is currently working for a startup company. In 3 years they have gone through A$10 million and are yet to bring their product to market. Do the people proposing the new game have that sort of money?

_____________________________

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Post #: 81
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/10/2019 2:41:43 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 4057
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger

I do not want matrix to do that.



Ditto

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Post #: 82
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/10/2019 3:08:30 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4306
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger
But if we go off and start building a new game from starch a point will come where Matrix will say stuff it and drop TOAW.

LOL, if Matrix drops TOAW it won't be because a handful of people are talking about creating a new game which has--being very generous--about a 1% chance of being realized after several years. I mean seriously...

In fact, you would think that this episode would get Matrix to say "Wow, there are people that like this game so much that they are willing to spend a lot of time trying to create something similar because we seem to have stopped support/development of this game...maybe there is some way we could harness that enthusiasm?". Instead--for several months now--there is absolute radio listening silence.

Meanwhile, by the way, I am still working on my XML editor for TOAW almost every day, and have already put out many more updates for it this year than Matrix has for TOAW. So for some of us, it's not really all about the money.



< Message edited by 76mm -- 12/10/2019 3:15:11 AM >

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Post #: 83
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/10/2019 3:50:45 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9237
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

if all the resources that would have to be sunk into a new game were applied to TOAW we would end up a "Roll Royce" of games.

Apparently the situation isn't clear to everyone. So let me try again, using this analogy - The Rolls Royce has been put in the garage and only two mechanics can touch it. No one else has anything to do with it except for Matrix Auto Transport, who is responsible for transporting the car to public showings whenever the two mechanics allow a release. Read it again - two mechanics only, no one else has even any influence.

So the dream team cannot help with TOAW, help is not wanted, HELP IS NOT WANTED. I've nothing against Matrix or TOAW, best of luck in the future to all of us. This 'Universal Game Engine 5.0' or whatever form it is in or takes has nothing to do with TOAW. Or maybe you could say it has as much to do with JTCS as Panzer Blitz does, or as much to do with WarPlan as Strategic Command.

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Post #: 84
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/10/2019 4:20:32 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4306
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Delete Matrix from the comments and insert the dev and you have a statement and that's closer to the truth.

Fair enough, although rightly or wrongly, I do hold Matrix accountable for the complete lack of communication...even if they don't control the development process, it seems like they should be able to tell us what's going on (or not)?

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 85
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/10/2019 10:57:08 AM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Delete Matrix from the comments and insert the dev and you have a statement and that's closer to the truth.

Fair enough, although rightly or wrongly, I do hold Matrix accountable for the complete lack of communication...even if they don't control the development process, it seems like they should be able to tell us what's going on (or not)?


Apparently not. If you have looked in on many of the other Matrix/Slitherine game development processes you will see that it isn't Matrix that provides the inside look at what is going on. It's the developer. Apparently this isn't initiated by Matrix but by the guy(s) developing the game. Matrix likely has to give the go ahead but it appears they don't bother with the day to day development. They are a publisher, yes? Lack of communication is not specifically a Matrix thing. It happens in the gaming industry a lot with publishers and developers. People can stomp out the door and talk about making their own game but by the time they get anything anywhere near to complete much about TOAW that is currently in development will have been finished.

Found this:

What does a game publisher do?
2 Answers
David Mullich
David Mullich, video game designer and producer since 6502. (He is evidently a time traveler )

Answered Oct 16 2015 · Author has 17.4k answers and 27.9m answer views

A game publisher publishes games.

Okay, here's a few more details.

In most cases, the publisher is the bank. It provides the money to fund game development, since most developers don't have the money to develop games (especially AAA games) on their own dime.

Here are some of a publisher's other tasks.

Finds and chooses games developed by third-party developers to publish.

Recruits and develops internal or third-party development talent to develop the publisher's game concepts.

Acquires film and other intellectual property licenses to develop into games.

Provides technical and production support to its game developers, which may include such things as development tool licensing, use of publisher-owned proprietary tools, localization, and/or porting.

Conducts quality assurance testing.

Promotes, advertises, manufactures, sells and distributes the games it publishes.

Provides technical and customer support.

For online game, a publisher may be responsible for community management and running the live team that develops new content.

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Post #: 86
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/10/2019 11:21:32 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
They are a publisher, yes?

But my understanding is that they bought the rights to TOAW and are thus an owner as well? If so I think that changes expectations.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 87
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/10/2019 1:57:32 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
They are a publisher, yes?

But my understanding is that they bought the rights to TOAW and are thus an owner as well? If so I think that changes expectations.


Yeah it's all very confusing isn't it?


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Post #: 88
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/10/2019 2:26:41 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4306
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Yeah it's all very confusing isn't it?

Indeed... at least Bob seems to think that it is Matrix's responsibility:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Let me say that this is the last thing I need to be wasting time on, but, as you know, we don’t have a permanent Matrix manager available yet, so I guess I have to assume these duties.


OK, not trying to pin anything on Matrix or anything, but can we at least agree that it is Matrix's fault that a permanent manager has not been appointed? Right? Right?

< Message edited by 76mm -- 12/10/2019 2:28:00 PM >

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Post #: 89
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/10/2019 4:51:35 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 4057
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Yeah it's all very confusing isn't it?

Indeed... at least Bob seems to think that it is Matrix's responsibility:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Let me say that this is the last thing I need to be wasting time on, but, as you know, we don’t have a permanent Matrix manager available yet, so I guess I have to assume these duties.


OK, not trying to pin anything on Matrix or anything, but can we at least agree that it is Matrix's fault that a permanent manager has not been appointed? Right? Right?




Like my teenage daughter used to say, "like, whatever".

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to 76mm)
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