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The Art of Conflict 2.0 - 12/4/2019 12:07:09 AM   
larryfulkerson


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I think that Matrix/Slitherene has probably spent a pretty penny getting the source code from Norman and, yeah, they probably won't want to give that up. So the answer might be to start with a blank sheet of paper and start an open source project that does what TOAW does now. But in a more concurrent language instead of C. Maybe Python. Or Java. Maybe something that a lot of programmers already know to hit the ground running. And YES a different name for the game engine. I'm wondering how many people we could count on to do a project like that. We'd need an AI expert I'm guessing. What would we call it? I'm thinking SimWar has already been taken. How about Universal Game Engine 5.0

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/4/2019 12:34:53 AM >


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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 12:29:03 AM   
Simon Edmonds

 

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How about The Art of Conflict?

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 12:32:32 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simon Edmonds
How about The Art of Conflict?
I like that a lot. That's good. TAoC, cool. We need something that hints that our product is capable to simulating almost anything at all from any time period because I suspect that may be one of our goals for the game engine. Keep those good ideas coming.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/4/2019 12:33:06 AM >


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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 2:24:59 AM   
larryfulkerson


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I established a Facebook group for us and you can find it here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/571381640314323/

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 11:07:10 AM   
DD696

 

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I'm not a facebook user and intend never to be. Facebook is a hated medium to some of us.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 11:35:12 AM   
Zovs


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same here on facebook and mark zookercrookenbachstealingyouridentityandheisnotahumanbeing

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 11:39:06 AM   
DD696

 

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Agree. Feeling a bit lonely now after stirring the pot finding the truth of the matter.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 12:18:51 PM   
sPzAbt653


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I don't use Facebook either. I would suggest that in order to see if there is any interest, maybe run a thread in the General Forum here.

If I understand correctly what Al Sousa [WarPlan] said, it took him two years to write that game using Unity. I know we have a great community of selfless contributors here, but I don't know how many volunteer 'coders' or [whatever you call those folks] there are. Also, I have recently talked to some others about such a project and one of the items that came out of that discussion was an outline that would be needed by coders in order to know what they are doing. This seems like a huge task in itself.

I am willing to participate and contribute whatever I can though, because its depressingly obvious that what we have now and have had for many years is completely disappointing.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 12:26:23 PM   
pz501


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I'm not a Facebook user either, and like a few others have said never will be.

Other than that I'm willing to help out any way I can. Not a programmer though.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 12:37:51 PM   
DD696

 

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I'll volunteer. I used to be a good COBOL programmer about 27 years ago, then played with basic for a few years on my pc's. I'm sure that was a helpful skill back then.

Now I have time to spend on whatever I desire and this could be something very worthwhile. I also seem to have a useful trait for fomenting a rebellion of sorts.

We need to have somebody step up and be the honcho for such a project otherwise it is going to run in all directions.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 12:47:20 PM   
larryfulkerson


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So many of you don't like the Facebook idea so I went to GitHub and established an account for us to use. It's here:
https://github.com/DonaldTrump240/TheArtofConflict

Please let me know if you guys have a problem getting to it etc. I think I did it right, so maybe we're on our way.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 1:07:45 PM   
Menschenfresser

 

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Also not a facebook user.

But I am a programmer and AI researcher.

A couple of things:
- This is a huge undertaking that will require multiple talents for 1000s of hours.
- Cannot do this through a BB or Facebook group. It will require regular face-to-face meetings (via internet, I'd assume). Too easy to be an outlier personality when the only mechanism for communication is "Post Reply".
- I wouldn't even bother talking about programming until a core group of dedicated people comes together and designs the thing. That means hammering out the mechanisms, the math and scope for as much of it as possible in as much detail as possible. Easy to say TOAW is broken; hard to say how it should be fixed...and have everyone agree.
- Must be cross-platform. It has been slow, but fewer and fewer developers believe a Windows only release is all they need. Matrix/Slitherine is a bit behind in this area. I think this is doubly true for independent projects.
- Develop the group first. Start regular meetings to draft the idea. Only once you've come together and feel confident the majority are in for the long haul then look for programmers, artists, etc. I'd go with a Patreon model so that everyone in the community can contribute. A constant flow of cash is a base line motivator to keep working.

My two cents.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 1:14:25 PM   
DD696

 

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Perhaps the start up should not immediately become divisive by using the name of our commander in chief.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 1:46:15 PM   
76mm


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What @Menschenfresser says makes a great deal of sense.

Also, I would expect that ultimately some limited $$ might be required, for artwork, specialized software, etc; if necessary at the appropriate stage we could set up a Kickstarter project for that.

I'm on Github, but don't see any way to start conversations?

My understanding is that C# + Unity is a pretty popular game development platform, but I have to say that most of the Unity games I've seen have been a bit blah-looking.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 1:46:55 PM   
DD696

 

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Is this to be a for profit undertaking?

Is this to be done as a labor of love for the game concept?

Will this game be distributed without cost to whoever wants it?

Will those who want the game have to pay for it?

Does anyone require cash payments to work on this concept?

Are you willing to volunteer your time?

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 2:00:46 PM   
pz501


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Maybe a good place to move to for discussion and planning purposes? http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php

If you scroll down, you'll see they even have a section called "Game Forge" which looks like it's for game design and development discussions. Both professional and amateur.

Just a thought. I believe the faster we get off of Matrix's turf (unless they specifically OK it) the better. This is their territory after all, and this is a bit of an insurrection so to speak.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 2:04:38 PM   
DD696

 

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That looks very appropriate for discussing this concept.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 2:10:02 PM   
76mm


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Actually, might make sense to have the initial discussions on some public game-related forum such as grogheads rather than github to see if anyone else might be interested.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 2:17:10 PM   
pz501


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

So many of you don't like the Facebook idea so I went to GitHub and established an account for us to use. It's here:
https://github.com/DonaldTrump240/TheArtofConflict

Please let me know if you guys have a problem getting to it etc. I think I did it right, so maybe we're on our way.

Larry, I can get to it with no problem, but can you rename it?

Speaking only for myself I think we need to keep all controversy and politics out of this. The naming is "cute" but might stir up a little trouble. Doesn't matter what your beliefs are, we should check them at the door.

Further, not everyone is from the USA, and I'll bet they couldn't care less about domestic politics and issues.

I know you don't mean anything by the naming, but I'm just sayin'....

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 5:26:50 PM   
tomlowshang

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pz501
Larry, I can get to it with no problem, but can you rename it?

Speaking only for myself I think we need to keep all controversy and politics out of this. The naming is "cute" but might stir up a little trouble. Doesn't matter what your beliefs are, we should check them at the door.

Further, not everyone is from the USA, and I'll bet they couldn't care less about domestic politics and issues.

I know you don't mean anything by the naming, but I'm just sayin'....

That unfortunate choice is Larry's username which cannot be changed on github, AFAICT. The project name by itself is fine, but combined with the username, I strongly suspect many developers will avoid the project. I suggest some else create the project, since nothing's been done yet, but Larry has to delete the project if you want to use the same name.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 5:37:37 PM   
tomlowshang

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I'm on Github, but don't see any way to start conversations?

Create an issue in the project.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
My understanding is that C# + Unity is a pretty popular game development platform, but I have to say that most of the Unity games I've seen have been a bit blah-looking.

Although it's much too early do discuss tools, I'll suggest the Godot Game Engine. It's free/libre, open source, cross platform, and actively developed. Unfortunately, I cannot post a link, but it's easy to find. :)

How a game looks has nothing to do with the language or engine used. Creating good graphics assets requires a completely different skill set than writing good code.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 6:00:59 PM   
tomlowshang

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pz501

Maybe a good place to move to for discussion and planning purposes? [grogheads link]

If you scroll down, you'll see they even have a section called "Game Forge" which looks like it's for game design and development discussions. Both professional and amateur.

Just a thought. I believe the faster we get off of Matrix's turf (unless they specifically OK it) the better. This is their territory after all, and this is a bit of an insurrection so to speak.

Discord is another good option for community discussion but it requires client software. Not sure how everyone feels about that.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 6:12:00 PM   
pz501


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Discord is OK if there's a consensus for it. I used it along with a friend from Alaska for of all things, War Thunder about a year ago. We tired of the game after a short while, but Discord was alright. Not my first choice though.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 6:30:08 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tomlowshang
How a game looks has nothing to do with the language or engine used. Creating good graphics assets requires a completely different skill set than writing good code.

Yeah, that's what I thought, but all the same most of the unity games I've seen have a UI that looked kind of the same, and not in a good way. Perhaps these games all used some kind of default graphics for the UI, dunno.

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 7:05:26 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39106
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696
I'm not a facebook user and intend never to be. Facebook is a hated medium to some of us.

We're going to abandon the Facebook site to go somewhere else. Maybe Grogheads

quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696
Agree. Feeling a bit lonely now after stirring the pot finding the truth of the matter.

We're all here with you. No worries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
If I understand correctly what Al Sousa [WarPlan] said, it took him two years to write that game using Unity. I know we have a great community of selfless contributors here, but I don't know how many volunteer 'coders' or [whatever you call those folks] there are. Also, I have recently talked to some others about such a project and one of the items that came out of that discussion was an outline that would be needed by coders in order to know what they are doing. This seems like a huge task in itself.

I am willing to participate and contribute whatever I can though, because its depressingly obvious that what we have now and have had for many years is completely disappointing.

I'll bet that most of us have no idea what we're getting into.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696
I'll volunteer. I used to be a good COBOL programmer about 27 years ago, then played with basic for a few years on my pc's. I'm sure that was a helpful skill back then.

Now I have time to spend on whatever I desire and this could be something very worthwhile. I also seem to have a useful trait for fomenting a rebellion of sorts.

We need to have somebody step up and be the honcho for such a project otherwise it is going to run in all directions.

I think maybe the guy with the most experience might be the best leader. It's been 20 years since I was a working stiff and I know nothing about how to herd people to make something worthwhile in software. But at one time I was a really good Assembly programmer (ALC - IBM 360 ).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Menschenfresser
Also not a facebook user.

But I am a programmer and AI researcher.

A couple of things:
- This is a huge undertaking that will require multiple talents for 1000s of hours.
- Cannot do this through a BB or Facebook group. It will require regular face-to-face meetings (via internet, I'd assume). Too easy to be an outlier personality when the only mechanism for communication is "Post Reply".
- I wouldn't even bother talking about programming until a core group of dedicated people comes together and designs the thing. That means hammering out the mechanisms, the math and scope for as much of it as possible in as much detail as possible. Easy to say TOAW is broken; hard to say how it should be fixed...and have everyone agree.
- Must be cross-platform. It has been slow, but fewer and fewer developers believe a Windows only release is all they need. Matrix/Slitherine is a bit behind in this area. I think this is doubly true for independent projects.
- Develop the group first. Start regular meetings to draft the idea. Only once you've come together and feel confident the majority are in for the long haul then look for programmers, artists, etc. I'd go with a Patreon model so that everyone in the community can contribute. A constant flow of cash is a base line motivator to keep working.

My two cents.

I agree with all he's said here.


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
What @Menschenfresser says makes a great deal of sense.

Also, I would expect that ultimately some limited $$ might be required, for artwork, specialized software, etc; if necessary at the appropriate stage we could set up a Kickstarter project for that.

I'm on Github, but don't see any way to start conversations?

My understanding is that C# + Unity is a pretty popular game development platform, but I have to say that most of the Unity games I've seen have been a bit blah-looking.

As it happens I'm independenly wealthy so to speak since I get both VA disability and SS and it amounts to about $4,000 a month. I spend about $500 a month on food and utilities and the rest goes to my daughter and her husband who are out of work. So I'm able to help out financially a bit.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696
Is this to be a for profit undertaking?
I'd rather it be free to the players.

Is this to be done as a labor of love for the game concept?
I think so. At least for me it is.

Will this game be distributed without cost to whoever wants it?
I'm going to insist that it is.

Will those who want the game have to pay for it?
I'd rather see it free for whoever wants it.

Does anyone require cash payments to work on this concept?
I'd rather see it as an open source, free project.

Are you willing to volunteer your time?
I am. I hope there are others who feel the same way.



quote:

ORIGINAL: pz501
Maybe a good place to move to for discussion and planning purposes? http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php

If you scroll down, you'll see they even have a section called "Game Forge" which looks like it's for game design and development discussions. Both professional and amateur.

Just a thought. I believe the faster we get off of Matrix's turf (unless they specifically OK it) the better. This is their territory after all, and this is a bit of an insurrection so to speak.

I like that idea.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Actually, might make sense to have the initial discussions on some public game-related forum such as grogheads rather than github to see if anyone else might be interested.

I've already established an account on Grogheads. My login is PopeFrancis.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tomlowshang
quote:

ORIGINAL: pz501
Speaking only for myself I think we need to keep all controversy and politics out of this. The naming is "cute" [my GitHub account name: DonaldTrump] but might stir up a little trouble. Doesn't matter what your beliefs are, we should check them at the door.

Further, not everyone is from the USA, and I'll bet they couldn't care less about domestic politics and issues.

I know you don't mean anything by the naming, but I'm just sayin'....


That unfortunate choice is Larry's username which cannot be changed on github, AFAICT. The project name by itself is fine, but combined with the username, I strongly suspect many developers will avoid the project. I suggest some else create the project, since nothing's been done yet, but Larry has to delete the project if you want to use the same name.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tomlowshang
I'm going to delete the GitHub account since we're not going to use it for anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
My understanding is that C# + Unity is a pretty popular game development platform, but I have to say that most of the Unity games I've seen have been a bit blah-looking.

Although it's much too early do discuss tools, I'll suggest the Godot Game Engine. It's free/libre, open source, cross platform, and actively developed. Unfortunately, I cannot post a link, but it's easy to find. :)

How a game looks has nothing to do with the language or engine used. Creating good graphics assets requires a completely different skill set than writing good code.



quote:

ORIGINAL: tomlowshang
quote:

ORIGINAL: pz501

Maybe a good place to move to for discussion and planning purposes? [grogheads link]

If you scroll down, you'll see they even have a section called "Game Forge" which looks like it's for game design and development discussions. Both professional and amateur.

Just a thought. I believe the faster we get off of Matrix's turf (unless they specifically OK it) the better. This is their territory after all, and this is a bit of an insurrection so to speak.

Discord is another good option for community discussion but it requires client software. Not sure how everyone feels about that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pz501
Discord is OK if there's a consensus for it. I used it along with a friend from Alaska for of all things, War Thunder about a year ago. We tired of the game after a short while, but Discord was alright. Not my first choice though.

Gentlemen: We seem to be on our way.

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Post #: 25
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 8:08:05 PM   
larryfulkerson


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I found out that the 2017 version of VisualStudio is free and I'm downloading it from here:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/install/install-visual-studio?view=vs-2019

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RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 8:29:13 PM   
DD696

 

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I'm registered over there as DD696. Didn't want to lose myself between forum shuttling.

Why don't you be the boss for now?

Get all of us herded in the right direction. See who really wants to be involved. Maybe find out our talents (I knew who won WWII over at grogheads!!!). Set up some basic goals. List what changes would be valuable to us over what is available in TOAW. Lots and lots of planning to be done.

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Post #: 27
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 8:36:32 PM   
tomlowshang

 

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Yes, don't worry about the tools for now. I'll also point out that I'm a Linux user who is willing to contribute this project. See Menschenfresser's post above about cross platform.

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Post #: 28
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 8:37:32 PM   
DD696

 

Posts: 888
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From: near Savannah, Ga
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Maybe form a planning committee? If there are a huge number of people and all want to help out with planning then it would be a mess. Everyone should feel free so submit suggestions, but an ultimate decision authority is essential.

I nominate larryf to be Head Honcho.

_____________________________

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We don't take kindly to idjits.

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Post #: 29
RE: Universal Game Engine 5.0 - 12/4/2019 8:47:31 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39106
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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696
I'm registered over there as DD696. Didn't want to lose myself between forum shuttling.
Good idea. I'm using "PopeFrancis" as part of a private running joke. I'm a militant atheist, you see.

Why don't you be the boss for now?
Alright, alright, alright. I suppose somebody has to do it. I'd rather somebody with experience be in charge because if I try to do it myself we may have several false starts as I flounder around without a clue what to do next.

Get all of us herded in the right direction. See who really wants to be involved.
For right now I'd like to see the conversation moved to Grogheads if only to get the thread off this forum.

Maybe find out our talents (I knew who won WWII over at grogheads!!!).
I think an inventory of our resources is a good idea. I'm downloading VisualStudio as we speak and I'm wondering how many other people use that as well.

Set up some basic goals.
Let's get a headcount and a list of participants names with their email addresses and maybe a short resume of skills so we can start the serious planning.

List what changes would be valuable to us over what is available in TOAW. Lots and lots of planning to be done.
Yeah, a wishlist would be good. And maybe a statement of log term goals and maybe a rough list of midcourse goals.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/4/2019 8:48:42 PM >


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