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The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by Ron... - 12/3/2019 8:15:21 PM   
RFalvo69


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I guess that being a WitP:AE veteran could help...

Edit: or a GG WitE/W veteran of course.

http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,7771.0.html

WWII-Europe Campaign Scenario
Design Notes

The scenario (called #102 in this file) consists of 318 turns, each one a week in duration. #102 is a division level scenario, and involves a large number of divisions (~3000). In order to build the scenario, it was necessary to analyze the units available to each country in September 1939, and to put them into the battle file. New created units are brought into the scenario at the historical turn in most cases. Rebuilding of units is modeled by having mechanical and non-mechanical replacement points, which allows new units to be built or existing units to be reinforced, player’s choice. This file describes the methods used for each country’s units in #102.
The scenario starts with the Axis player having the initiative.

Allied Player units
1. Poland (110 units)
a. The units available to Poland in September 1939 are placed in their historical locations. Polish units can be moved but cannot attack until the Axis captures a Polish city (new rule to be coded).
2. Norway (46 units)
a. The units available to Norway in April 1940 are placed in their historical locations on September 1939, assuming that mobilization could occur if attacked earlier. Norwegian units can be moved but cannot attack until the Axis captures a Norwegian city (new rule to be coded).
3. Denmark (19 units)
a. The units available to Denmark in April 1940 are placed in their historical locations on September 1939 assuming that mobilization would have occurred if attacked earlier. Danish units can be moved but cannot attack until the Axis captures a Danish city (new rule to be coded).
4. France (200 units)
a. The units available to France in May 1940 are placed in their historical locations on September 1939, assuming that mobilization could occur if attacked earlier. French units can be moved but cannot attack until the Axis captures an Allied city (new rule to be coded). It is assumed that France would declare war on the Axis if any Allied city was captured.
5. Belgium (37 units)
a. The units available to Belgium in May 1940 are placed in their historical locations on September 1939, assuming that mobilization could occur if attacked earlier. Belgian units can be moved but cannot attack until the Axis captures a Belgium city (new rule to be coded).
6. The Netherlands (36 units)
a. The units available to The Netherlands in May 1940 are placed in their historical locations on September 1939, assuming that mobilization could occur if attacked earlier. The Netherlands units can be moved but cannot attack until the Axis captures a The Netherlands city (new rule to be coded).
7. Yugoslavia (73 units)
a. The units available to Yugoslavia in April 1941 are placed in their historical locations on September 1939, assuming that mobilization could occur if attacked first. Yugoslavian units can be moved but cannot attack until the Axis captures a Yugoslavian city (new rule to be coded).
8. Greece (35 units)
a. The units available to Greece in April 1941 are placed in their historical locations on September 1939, assuming that mobilization could occur if attacked earlier. Greek units can be moved but cannot attack until the Axis captures a Greek city (new rule to be coded). Note that Italy attacked Greece from Albania in October 1940, and Germany intervened in April 1941 to secure its flank in the impending attack on Russia.
9. United Kingdom (UK) (326 units)
a. The units available to the UK in May 1940 are placed in their historical locations on September 1939, assuming that mobilization could occur if attacked earlier. UK units can be moved but cannot attack until the Axis captures an Allied city (new rule to be coded). It is assumed that the United Kingdom would declare war on the Axis if any Allied city was captured.
10. United States of America (USA) (195)
a. The units available to the USA are brought in and placed in their historical locations on the same week they entered the war historically. This assumes an attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941. USA units can be moved and attack upon entry.
b. Most USA units enter in a port in England, or a port in North Africa. If the entry location is still in Axis control, it defaults to their HQ location, or to a friendly controlled city using the standard existing entry rules in WWII-E.
11. Russia (Number is TBD)
a. The units available to Russia in September 1939 are placed in their historical locations and on the Axis side. Russian units can be moved but cannot attack until the Axis captures a Polish city (new rule to be coded). If/when Russia is attacked by the Axis (Axis unit captures a Russian city), then the Russian units available on June 22nd, 1941 will be placed on the map on the Allied side in their historical locations. New Russian units are brought in on their historical turn and location, but rebuilds are modeled as replacement points to be used at the player discretion. The Russian player can build 4-2-5 Tank Divisions and 3-2-5 Tank Brigades units until 1942. Starting in 1943, the Russian player can build or upgrade existing to 12-10-7 Tank Corps (T34) units and 14-12-7 Tank Corps (T34/85). Starting in 1943, the Russian player can build 12-8-7 Mechanized Corps. The Russian player can build 2-4-2 Rifle units at the start, and in 1943 can build or upgrade to 3-5-3 Rifle units. The Russian player can build 3-3-6 Cavalry units throughout the war. Building new non-historical divisions will be a new rule to be coded. Fighter and Bomber units can also be built new from mechanical replacement points. The Russian player can upgrade any unit by one AF and one DF throughout the war, and is limited to 129 Rifle units and 50 Tank/Mech/Cavalry units. This models the creation of Guards units from existing units, which augmented their Shtat (order of battle).

Axis Player units
1. Germany (1002 units)
a. The units available to Germany in September 1939 are placed in their historical locations. German units can be moved and can attack on turn 1. New German units are brought in on their historical turn and location, but rebuilds are modeled as replacement points to be used at the player discretion. The German player can build 14-10-7 panzer units until 1942, and can then build or upgrade existing to 16-12-7 panzer units (Panthers & Tigers). The German player can build 10-10-3 infantry divisions at the start, and can build 10-10-3 or 5-7-3 (Volksgrenadier) divisions starting in 1943. The German player can build 8-8-7 Motorized divisions at the start, and can build 8-8-7 or 12-10-7 Panzergrenadier divisions starting in 1943. Building new non-historical divisions will be a new rule to be coded. Fighter and Bomber units can also be built new from mechanical replacement points.
2. Italy (208 units)
a. The units available to Italy are brought in and placed in their historical locations on the same week they entered the war historically. Capture of Rome results in all Italian units being removed from the game which models surrender.
3. Finland (40 units)
a. The units available to the Finland are brought in and placed in their historical locations on the same week they entered the war historically. Capture of Helsinki results in all Finnish units being removed from the game which models surrender.
4. Romania (35 units)
a. The units available to the Romania are brought in and placed in their historical locations on the same week they entered the war historically. Capture of Bucharest results in all Romanian units being removed from the game which models surrender.
5. Hungary (18 units)
a. The units available to the Hungary are brought in and placed in their historical locations on the same week they entered the war historically. Capture of Budapest results in all Hungarian units being removed from the game which models surrender.

< Message edited by RFalvo69 -- 12/3/2019 8:30:03 PM >


_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

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Post #: 1
RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/4/2019 11:09:02 AM   
IslandInland


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The war in Europe at divisional level is one of the holy grails of wargaming. I have that Schwerpunkt game and the UI is truly hateful but for that scenario I might give it another try.




_____________________________

I saw generals create imaginary "masses of manoeuvre" with a crayon and dispose of enemy concentrations, that were on the ground and on the map, with an eraser. Who was I to criticise them, hero as I was of a hundred "Chinagraph wars" of make-believe?

(in reply to RFalvo69)
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RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/4/2019 11:32:51 AM   
Zovs


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Agreed it has potential but the UI leaves something to be desired.

CWIE2 is perhaps the best European Divisional level war game, but it has no AI and it''s best play against 1 or 2 others (it can be a three player game).

Hopefully one day Gary and 2x3 will do it justice.

_____________________________


War in the East/War in the East II - Alpha Test Teams
WarPlan Beta Tester
DG CWIE2 tester/SPWW2 and SPMBT playtester/scenario & campaign creator

(in reply to IslandInland)
Post #: 3
RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/4/2019 12:06:40 PM   
sPzAbt653


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There are a couple of settings that I found helpful, such as 'Select Top Unit = ON' and 'Mouse Assist = OFF', but there are still some issues that are not easy to understand [such as moving in three stages instead of one] ans some things that were added recently [pop-up to select advancing units instead of selecting them right on the map] and some things that were recently removed [Quantitative Supply].

I'm waiting to see what happens with the next update, to see how the developer [another of these one-two man teams] handles making improvements. I don't mean to sound negative because this title appears to be very promising, but it has been around for a long time and one must wonder why such issues persist while the monster scenario posted above is in development.

(in reply to IslandInland)
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RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/4/2019 12:33:33 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Hopefully one day Gary and 2x3 will do it justice.

+100 Maybe after WitE 2?

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 5
RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/4/2019 4:29:32 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 783
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

There are a couple of settings that I found helpful, such as 'Select Top Unit = ON' and 'Mouse Assist = OFF', but there are still some issues that are not easy to understand [such as moving in three stages instead of one]


In my experience, the best thing to do in WWII-E is A) Prepare a plan. B) Use all the movement points available in your turn to place your units in their "staging area" (in contact with the enemy - avoid attack moves if not necessary) and C) On the next turn strike and breakthrough as fast as possible.

Of course the opponent can understand what you are going to do, and use his phase to move or reassign his reserve units so to buttress the crucial areas (the same thing, of course, is valid for you, if you are the one on the defensive). This interaction can lead to some interesting game dynamics.

The scenario will be free - since it is actually part of the game we already paid for. I'm looking forward to it. If done right it could finally give us a game with a GDW "Europa" feeling - even if, of course, the game systems are different.

< Message edited by RFalvo69 -- 12/4/2019 4:30:04 PM >


_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 6
RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/4/2019 9:34:54 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9210
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

In my experience, the best thing to do in WWII-E is A) Prepare a plan. B) Use all the movement points available in your turn to place your units in their "staging area" (in contact with the enemy - avoid attack moves if not necessary) and C) On the next turn strike and breakthrough as fast as possible.

Certainly one way to do it, but I was referring to a unit, for example, with a movement allowance of 9 only being able to move 3 hexes at a time [1/3 of its total]. Now, for a Panzer unit with a movement allowance of 24 it may seem more reasonable to restrict it to 8 hexes at a time, but still we can do that on our own, no need to make it mandatory.
Because of things like this people complain about the UI, because to move a unit its full movement allowance takes a minimum of 5 clicks. Now play your gigantor scenario with a couple hundred units to move. 1,000 clicks per turn! There is no reason for it, yet the developer doesn't see this as an issue.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 7
RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/5/2019 2:35:22 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 4006
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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It's nothing compared to moving around hundreds even thousands of counters in stacks with tweezers so you don't disturb adjacent stacks. Now that could get tedious.

Of course map scrolling was never an issue.

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(in reply to sPzAbt653)
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RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/5/2019 2:41:04 AM   
pz501


Posts: 153
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Agreed it has potential but the UI leaves something to be desired.

CWIE2 is perhaps the best European Divisional level war game, but it has no AI and it''s best play against 1 or 2 others (it can be a three player game).

Hopefully one day Gary and 2x3 will do it justice.

I agree about CWIE2. It even has a full editor that allows for modding and changing most everything within reason.

A big, simple, and easy to play monster. I was last involved in a three player game about 3 years ago as Western Allies. Dropped out because I was invited to the TOAW IV playtest, and I thought I wouldn't have any time. When that turned out to be not the case, the game and my opponents were gone. Decision Games doesn't have an active forum anymore, and I don't know of anyplace to find opponents for CWIE2. Too bad. It was a lot of fun, and I still kick myself for foolishly dropping out because of TOAW. Live and learn...I even posted here once hoping to find an opponent or two, and give a heads up about a new patch. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4008371

As far as Ron's WW2IE goes, I have it. No longer installed, and I'd have to find the file - it's around someplace. A lot of potential, and Ron's a great guy. My issues are the usual ones about the UI. Have to wait and see before I reinstall.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Zovs)
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RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/5/2019 11:56:44 AM   
IslandInland


Posts: 705
Joined: 12/8/2014
From: YORKSHIRE
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

There are a couple of settings that I found helpful, such as 'Select Top Unit = ON' and 'Mouse Assist = OFF', but there are still some issues that are not easy to understand [such as moving in three stages instead of one] ans some things that were added recently [pop-up to select advancing units instead of selecting them right on the map] and some things that were recently removed [Quantitative Supply].

I'm waiting to see what happens with the next update, to see how the developer [another of these one-two man teams] handles making improvements. I don't mean to sound negative because this title appears to be very promising, but it has been around for a long time and one must wonder why such issues persist while the monster scenario posted above is in development.



That pop up asking if you wish to advance units is utterly ridiculous and sort of sums up the whole "attitude" of the UI which almost seems to resent the player playing the game.


< Message edited by IslandInland -- 12/5/2019 11:57:06 AM >


_____________________________

I saw generals create imaginary "masses of manoeuvre" with a crayon and dispose of enemy concentrations, that were on the ground and on the map, with an eraser. Who was I to criticise them, hero as I was of a hundred "Chinagraph wars" of make-believe?

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 10
RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/5/2019 12:00:20 PM   
IslandInland


Posts: 705
Joined: 12/8/2014
From: YORKSHIRE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Agreed it has potential but the UI leaves something to be desired.

CWIE2 is perhaps the best European Divisional level war game, but it has no AI and it''s best play against 1 or 2 others (it can be a three player game).

Hopefully one day Gary and 2x3 will do it justice.


I've downloaded the demo and I'm going to have a look at CWIE 2. I can live without an AI if the game is sufficiently engrossing.

Thanks for the heads up.


_____________________________

I saw generals create imaginary "masses of manoeuvre" with a crayon and dispose of enemy concentrations, that were on the ground and on the map, with an eraser. Who was I to criticise them, hero as I was of a hundred "Chinagraph wars" of make-believe?

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 11
RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/5/2019 8:37:08 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 783
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

In my experience, the best thing to do in WWII-E is A) Prepare a plan. B) Use all the movement points available in your turn to place your units in their "staging area" (in contact with the enemy - avoid attack moves if not necessary) and C) On the next turn strike and breakthrough as fast as possible.

Certainly one way to do it, but I was referring to a unit, for example, with a movement allowance of 9 only being able to move 3 hexes at a time [1/3 of its total]. Now, for a Panzer unit with a movement allowance of 24 it may seem more reasonable to restrict it to 8 hexes at a time, but still we can do that on our own, no need to make it mandatory.
Because of things like this people complain about the UI, because to move a unit its full movement allowance takes a minimum of 5 clicks. Now play your gigantor scenario with a couple hundred units to move. 1,000 clicks per turn! There is no reason for it, yet the developer doesn't see this as an issue.


I don't know... Maybe I'm particularly patient, but, after a while, WWII-E UI became, to me, second nature. True, the turn is fragmented. But I also feel that "coded" in this fragmentation there is a move-reaction dynamic superior (to me) to TOAW's (gasp! shock!) one. I'm not blind to Don's - let's say - peculiar approach to UIs - but I can grasp the reasoning behind them.

Could the UI be better? Absolutely. Can I overcome its "peculiarities? Well, I can: after years of playing there is a sort of "muscle memory" which allows me to concentrate on strategies, not on the UI. Others mileage can vary. A demo would be very welcome (either "Denmark 40" or "Poland 39"). This would allow to potential players if it is a game for them, and if the strange UI is worth the effort.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 12
RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/5/2019 10:26:17 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9210
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
I want to move my Infantry Division it's full 9 hex movement allowance. I HAVE to move it 3 hexes at a time. It's two extra clicks, for each unit. There is no choice. I don't see what there is to grasp about that And that is only one point of several that are obvious and un-debatable. I appreciate your passion, along with Ron's and the one other guy at DOW, but I think you have to admit that in its current state the game turns people off rather quickly, and for no good reason, which is frustrating.

I also pointed out to Ron that the DOW site has three reviews of WWII-E and each of them is negative towards the UI. That's his main site, his main form of advertisemnt! Ron says other people like the UI, and he can't make everybody happy. I'll be sarcastic here and say how about posting a review that praises the UI [because there aren't any]. After 15+ years of development there shouldn't even be these types of discussions.

There are possibly bigger problems with the game, though. To mu experience tt currently doesn't accurately represent real life results in the campaigns that are depicted. I can't reproduce similar results to history in Poland, France or Russia. This has to do with Supply Rules, Surrender Rules and the Map. However, maybe I don't have enough experience with WWII-E yet.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 13
RE: The gigantor "WWII in Europe" scenario by... - 12/5/2019 10:50:45 PM   
IslandInland


Posts: 705
Joined: 12/8/2014
From: YORKSHIRE
Status: offline
I've been playing computer wargames since the mid 1980s. I started with CCS's Desert Rats. I played SSG games on the C64 and all of those games had better and more useable UI than World War II Europe by Schwerpunkt. The UI seems contrarian, almost intentionally annoying and is the perfect example of why game development should not be left to just one person when feedback and in some cases just plain common sense seems to be sorely lacking when taking the end user's experience into account.

I have played the Denmark scenario repeatedly and just cannot get past the appalling UI. I can't imagine trying to play a larger scenario with this cumbersome and ultimately incredibly frustrating system.

IMO if this game had even half as good a UI as WITW/WITE it could be a big hit with the wargaming community.


< Message edited by IslandInland -- 12/5/2019 11:43:03 PM >


_____________________________

I saw generals create imaginary "masses of manoeuvre" with a crayon and dispose of enemy concentrations, that were on the ground and on the map, with an eraser. Who was I to criticise them, hero as I was of a hundred "Chinagraph wars" of make-believe?

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 14
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