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RE: New Between the Storms Direction

 
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RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/24/2019 2:55:40 AM   
BillBrown


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That would be perfect Lew.

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RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/24/2019 3:15:54 AM   
John 3rd


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GREAT! A second set of play-testers. Can you gentlemen PM me your email addresses? I'll use those to create an email set for the four of us. Figure we'll Post our work on an AAR Thread and keep notes...


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Post #: 122
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/24/2019 10:43:39 AM   
AdmNelson


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Sent

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Very Proud Marine Dad

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RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/24/2019 4:58:47 PM   
John 3rd


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Got both addresses. Thanks guys.


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Post #: 124
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/24/2019 7:04:05 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

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I'm enjoying my R&R in Europe.

Since I have been involved in the whole industry rebooting affair, I have to offer myself as volunteer.

I guess I will send you a PM somehow soon. Feel free to PM me in any case: I do read but probably won't answer quickly because I prefer giving complete answers rather than writing from a phone in a Czech pub as I am doing



What does the testing imply if I can ask? A "serious" match or just few months worth of turns to see whether everything works?



I am Japanese in my deep soul but I can play as allied as well. I played 4-5 games as allied but I have never seen 1942 so I am quite inexperienced. As Japanese I can maintain a rhythm of 1 turn per day during working days and more in the weekend under optimal conditions. I have two games running and one paused, though. Only one of the two active is really active. In the other I think my opponent decided to step down: 20 days with no turns after I mistreated his java invasion fleet...



Let me know guys.



Also, very important, I am currently based in Liberia and I don't plan to move in the next months (unless very bad things happen and I do pray they won't). It's something like -0100 compared to CET. Now it's 2003, for example (and 2103 in Europe)

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Francesco

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Post #: 125
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/25/2019 3:30:00 AM   
John 3rd


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I did not expect the offer Sir. That would be great!

OK. Let us look at three pairs of play-testers. Do we have another Allied player interested?

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Post #: 126
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/25/2019 9:25:08 PM   
John 3rd


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Michael is plugging away at China so that is good. When he gets that done, we can play-test.

Need one more volunteer for the Allied side.

Have a laundry list of things to work on, get comments on, and check out but the testing can occur because of worries over the Japanese HI Economy as well as the China re-tool.

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Post #: 127
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/26/2019 3:23:30 PM   
John 3rd


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Things to discuss and think on with the re-vamp of the Mod.

1. ZERO Successor--Three OPTIONS:
a. When we originally start BTS/RA, we went all in on the ZERO airframe, got rid of JACK, and made the GEORGE the land-based Japanese airframe of choice.

b. Upon thinking, we decided to change this with the present BTS/RA and go with M2-M5 and jump the design team to JACK to bring it forward faster. GEORGE gets more support so it moves along faster as well. This creates the options of the Japanese having BOTH JACK and GEORGE to choose from to the detriment of the SAM. I did not think this fully thru when I did this change in that the M5 still comes into production. It would be cut out so the M2 is the mainstay until production gets going on either JACK or GEORGE.

c. A 3rd possibility would be to do start with M2--do NO MORE ZERO airframes--, cut JACK out, and jump to SAM. SAM would move up from June 1945 to sometime earlier. To bring the plane forward, the design team has to be freed up from late-model ZERO changes and the JACK.

The choice is between b. and c.. In both scenarios, the M2 is it. The Japanese are screwed until they bring forward an advanced airframe. It is all about trade-offs in a limited economy!

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Post #: 128
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/26/2019 3:35:48 PM   
John 3rd


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2. The difference between Between the Storms: Lite and Heavy

Pure ship-building decisions:

In BTSL, the Japanese don't build the Yamato-Class so there is no need for the huge expense of naval yard expansion at Nagasaki and elsewhere. The IJN elects to build the more conventional Owari-Class (3x3 16"). Four are ordered with two being complete (due to no delays in new weaponry, expanded yards, etc...) on Dec 7th and two more coming in late-43/early-44, the Japanese also build two B-65 fast BC, and 6 Niitaka-Class CAs. CVs remain the same in both variants. In keeping with the redone economy, this scenario would also see a boost in supply and fuel due to no expenditures on the additional work required by the Yamato-Class.

BTSH features the building of four Yamato-Class and six of the Fuji-Class LBC (2x2 14:). CVs remain the same.

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Post #: 129
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/26/2019 9:22:40 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Working off of IDAKLinus numbers and the current BTS vs DB #, this is what I get for the cost:

Resources need to drop 440,500
Oil needs to drop 617,800
Supply needs to drop 653,512
Fuel needs to drop 330,225

If we pull ALL of it from the HI starting point, then the stress and fear of immediate need to keep the economy running is pretty real for any JFB.




I know you hate economic stuff, but if you want all of the other changes you have to look at it a bit more.

It still seems you're not looking at the actual economy numbers IDAKLinus posted. It's not about starting amounts of the above categories but how those are produced during the match. If you have the BTS economy running on extra resource/oil production centres to the level it was previously then it can support the massive increase in the economy you're saying is actually plausible (which I don't really think it would be in any historical way).

I keep pointing to his results in looking at the oil/resources production comparison from stock/DBB to BTS, and if you take resource/oil production back to historical levels you will not be able to support the increased HI/LI.

So what are you doing with those numbers for the production centres for oil/resources? All of your posts seem skirt around this, and you have said something vague about Michael changing them all back.

Can you list the changes being made?
I think you have a choice of a complete fantasy economy with increased resources/oil or a historically plausible economy which doesn't increase those productions and thus can't support much more HI/LI without conquering more resources/oil and transporting it back to the HI.

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Post #: 130
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/27/2019 7:27:34 PM   
John 3rd


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Hi Obvert.

Michael compared BTS to DaBabes and made sure that the starting Dec 7th numbers are the same as DaBabes. With the exceptions I specifically listed above, the Home Island Area should now match what the normal start is. Since IDAK Linus is one of the people giving it a spin, I expect great insight and commentary from him.

We can see the 'results' when the three sets of play-testers get rolling.


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RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/27/2019 11:55:35 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

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It doesn't matter much but.... it's ITAK_Linus

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Francesco

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RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/28/2019 1:11:43 PM   
John 3rd


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Does matter! Sorry about that.

Michael: How are you coming along?


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Post #: 133
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/2/2020 3:43:13 AM   
BillBrown


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An word on when we can start a test game?

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RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/2/2020 2:04:53 PM   
John 3rd


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Am going to talk with Michael today and see where he is at with China changes.

I've made major decision within the Naval Aircraft Fighters issue. Think I'll address that after the wife heads to work.


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Post #: 135
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/2/2020 7:27:51 PM   
John 3rd


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The Between the Storms scenarios (Treaty, Reluctant Admiral, and Between the Storms) has always been premised on two major changes to history:

1. The Japanese successfully argue for a 10:7 (instead of 10:6) ratio at Washington and London as well as 'playing with/experimenting with' new/unusual ships (the 1920s oddball SS and Hybrid Warships).

and

2. Admiral Yamamoto assuming the mantle of Naval Minister in 1937. His ascension leads to Japan preparing better for a long-term war of attrition as well as embracing newer technologies.


Each of these changes has been grounded in serious, historical facts and writings.

1. Any ship added to the Mods has been brought in off of real designs based on actual or hypothetical warships. Primary sources abound and I have referenced many of them. If anyone ever has a question as to where did this come from or why is this so has simply to ask. I'll (as seen over in Sean's AAR with Q-Ball) cite the source and page number if needed.

2. Most of the changes brought on by Yamamoto comes off his direct writings (the fantastic book Reluctant Admiral) or that of his staff/acolytes. The additions, changes, and tweaks from 1937-1941 reflect his control of the Fleet. The period from 1941 to 1945 is more suspect but all decisions were made in a spirit of 'how do you THINK he might have responded?'


This is the thinking that has always guided the work within these Mods. They are designed to be AltHist Naval Mods. The IJA has rarely been touched. There are a few changes but not many there. The goal has been to create a set of Mods that sit somewhere between Scenario 1 and Scenario 2.

One area has always been exceedingly difficult to pin down within our design/creation philosophy: Japanese CV-Based Fighters.

a. The first iterations of this question were settled by focusing entirely on the ZERO Airframe and Horikoshi Jiro's design team at Mitsubishi. FatR and I created, with help from serious Forumites, an extended series of ZEROS and deleted the JACK.

For those who don't, Horikoshi and his Team designed the ZERO, the JACK, and the SAM. By deleting the JACK we took away the distraction of being pulled in THREE directions at the same time. This conflict and heavy workload led Horikoshi to delay work on other projects whenever he had to help with a new upgrade for the ZERO, deal with JACK's teething pains, or fight to get the RIGHT engine into the SAM.

b. The ZERO answer in the first workings of the Mods worked but it wasn't too terribly good. Our design team felt that, perhaps, the better answer was to cut down on ZERO design and development (work through the M5) and reinstate the JACK as the second generation Fighter answer to the realities of late-42/1943. We allow for Minister Yamamoto to 'encourage' competition between the JACK and GEORGE's design teams. If you have never read the story of the GEORGE and how Kawanishi fought to create a truly superb fighter, it is one you should look at!

So the Mark Two version of the Mods allow for BOTH JACK and GEORGE to develop and come in earlier and with more models. The player is given the CHOICE as to which plane to invest in and bring forward for deployment. This choice usually leads to apoplectic responses from some forumites about having a CV-Based GEORGE model flying very late-43/early-44.



Having played BTS into late-43 with Sean, I have constantly been working to improve the Mod and work on balance issues when they became apparent. My intention was to walk away from Mod Development at that point. Thanks to questions from Sean, my creative juices started flowing again and we made the decision to import work from Brian's excellent Big B Mod. I wanted to created some smaller scenarios (like Wake and Coral Sea) using his base work but changes it to reflect the ALTHIST of BTS. Movement here has led to the 3rd and, hopefully, final iteration of the Mods.

3. Japan does not have the resources to bank on multiple options for aircraft development so we are taking a radically different direction using historical information on Horikoshi's Design Team. Japanese Fighters will take two directions in 1940-1941. Knowing some of the designs being worked on by the Allies and Japan's Axis partners, the Imperial Japanese Navy develops the ZERO as planned but STOPS with the M2 and Sen Baku FB. No M3 or M5 or other variants. The ZERO is superb but the second generation Fighters need a complete new look and design. Horikoshi's Team creates the M2 and Sen Baku then directly moves to the SAM. No JACK.

Original designs were made in both 1940 (16-Shi)and 1941 (17-Shi) for SAM. The designs were highly promising but Horikoshi was limited with engine choices. He creates the A7M1 SAM but it is under-powered. The planes handles beautifully but cannot climb quickly at all. Very promising but not decisive. It is BETTER then the M2 in firepower (2 20MM and 2 .50-Cal MG), faster, has armor, and is very maneuverable but needs a far better engine. That engine comes with the A7M2 model. With no other choices for a CV-Based Fighter, the Japanese go with it and hope for the M2 to come along as fast as possible.

For the ground-based side of the second generation Fighter question the decision is made to go with the GEORGE. Without a HUGE re-design of the undercarriage, GEORGE cannot handle the stress of CV usage. It will serve as the IJN's ground-based Fighter for late-42/1943/1944.



OK. That is the thinking and rationale. Here is a chart showing the A7M1--A7M2--A6M2--A6M5. Take a look:






I nerfed the stats between the M1 and M2. The sources used are Francillon, Mondey, and some on-line sites. The delivery dates are advanced roughly six months reflecting Horikoshi's entire focus on the Airframe.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 1/2/2020 7:51:59 PM >


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RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/2/2020 7:47:22 PM   
BillBrown


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In your text you stae:

the Imperial Japanese Navy develops the ZERO as planned but STOPS with the M2 and Sen Baku FB. No M3 or M5 or other variants

But the chart has an M5.

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RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/2/2020 7:47:29 PM   
John 3rd


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Looking at the Stats between the A7M1 and the A6M5 you see they are pretty comparable with the exception of climb. Better firepower and armor.

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Post #: 138
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/2/2020 7:49:09 PM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

In your text you stae:

the Imperial Japanese Navy develops the ZERO as planned but STOPS with the M2 and Sen Baku FB. No M3 or M5 or other variants

But the chart has an M5.


I put it on for comparison. The stats come from Big B's Mod.

The A7M1 would be an IMPROVEMENT over the A6M2 in nearly all areas but climb and maneuver.

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Post #: 139
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/3/2020 2:30:51 AM   
gr8bookworm


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Hi John, is between the storms available as is now? I am returning after a long break and wanting to play a PBEM against my brother and BTS looks good. I found a website but th download files were all PDF ‘s and I could work out how to do the install?

Also am I correct that I need the DaBabs extended map? I just installed the ChemKids maps and they look nice but they won’t work will they?

Cheers

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Post #: 140
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/3/2020 3:27:21 PM   
John 3rd


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The Mods do use the extended map. I use ChemKids version of that map. LOVE it!

Should be able to download the Mod from our site.


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Post #: 141
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/3/2020 4:59:47 PM   
BillBrown


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You can, but the BTS-L mod is a bit hard to find on your site right now.
You have to go to the BTS-H page and then on the bottom there are links to
the BTS-L and Treaty mod. The links should be higher up in the chain.

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Post #: 142
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/3/2020 6:06:27 PM   
John 3rd


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That is a good note Bill. I will speak to the Mrs. about fixing the order on my pages!

Talked with Michael and he said that if playoff football isn't too exciting he thinks the China side will be close if not done. Once that is complete, I shall get the files, do some checking, and then send them out. Since Michael is a very good economics person, he wants to break our match and move over to ITAKLinus.

I'll need an Allied player and am thinking about asking Dan for his perspective.

I propose that we simply play through Dec 41. A few weeks of playing should allow for the Allied Players to have a feel for things and give the Japanese players a chance to see if the economy works.

WE can have a new thread to write our public thoughts on so anyone interested can read it.

Thoughts?


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Post #: 143
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/3/2020 10:38:12 PM   
BillBrown


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Sounds fine to me. I am not sure, but Adm Nelson and I might play a complete game at some point.
We played a BTS 2.4 game until about June 1944 when he had to drop because of RL issues.

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Post #: 144
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/5/2020 8:45:12 PM   
AdmNelson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Sounds fine to me. I am not sure, but Adm Nelson and I might play a complete game at some point.
We played a BTS 2.4 game until about June 1944 when he had to drop because of RL issues.



Sounds good to me also. Ready to go.

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Post #: 145
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/7/2020 12:45:32 AM   
John 3rd


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Hi gang.

Got sick last Thursday and it turned into the flu. Not fun.

There is a lot for Michael to do with China. I am thinking that perhaps we can load the files as is and see how things work. Playtesters---what do you think?

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Post #: 146
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/7/2020 1:03:28 AM   
BillBrown


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My feeling is that without all the changes that you intend to make it would be a waste of time.

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Post #: 147
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/7/2020 2:37:49 AM   
AdmNelson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

My feeling is that without all the changes that you intend to make it would be a waste of time.



I would agree on that.

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Post #: 148
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/7/2020 2:17:20 PM   
John 3rd


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OK. We'll wait until it is done and ready for a test drive.


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Post #: 149
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 1/17/2020 12:47:18 AM   
DOCUP


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John what modernizations did the Kongo class receive? I know it wasn't turned into a BB.

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