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RE: New Between the Storms Direction

 
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RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 4:48:30 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 321
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I would like to put in a word or two in support of John.

1. John has been playing only one or the other of his mods for a very long time. He really does not
have a point of reference to "know" that his mod is out of wack. The early versions of his mods
were done by a group of people and he did not always know exactly what was changed.

2. I think fatr made many of the early aircraft and economy modifications. I am not sure which ones John
actually knew about. He has stated that Anshan was increased by fatr very early in the mod cycle. So I would
say that others that played Japan that were experienced Japanese players should have made a comment
at some time.

3. I stated this elsewhere but I need to put it here. I have played as Allies in this mod and find it fun
and entertaining. I really am not worried about Japan having more goodies, the Allies get enough to have
a lot of fun.

4. One item that I do not think is right is the Jack and George being CV capable with such good stats. Generally
if an aircraft goes from a land only aircraft to a CV capable it gains weight and loses speed and maneuverability.
It is something to look at.




Nobody is questioning who made the changes and why. Not me for sure. And it's far from me accusing somebody of wrongdoing. Still, I cannot believe that any vaguely competent Japanese player can play for 600 turns without realising that the economy got these heavy changes. I can believe that for, I dunno, Manpower. I never check it. I take data also from it but in theory I wouldn't need.
Doing everything by hand (well... Technically on Excel...) I could have missed it if I wouldn't have taken the info.

But for such an essential element like OIL... C'mon.


Again, it's a matter of being the most incompetent Japanese player ever, and I don't think so, or not saying a word about these additional resources. Also because, in theory, those "much lower initial stocks" should have brought somebody to check how much is this "much lower". And playing with a constant control of these stocks.
I have yet to see somebody who stretches the economy a lot and never checks it.

It's like driving on the highway well faster than car's safe limits.
Blindfolded.
Under LSD.
On the wrong direction.

_____________________________

Francesco

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 31
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 4:55:38 PM   
btd64


Posts: 7181
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in OHIO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I would like to put in a word or two in support of John.

1. John has been playing only one or the other of his mods for a very long time. He really does not
have a point of reference to "know" that his mod is out of wack. The early versions of his mods
were done by a group of people and he did not always know exactly what was changed.

2. I think fatr made many of the early aircraft and economy modifications. I am not sure which ones John
actually knew about. He has stated that Anshan was increased by fatr very early in the mod cycle. So I would
say that others that played Japan that were experienced Japanese players should have made a comment
at some time.

3. I stated this elsewhere but I need to put it here. I have played as Allies in this mod and find it fun
and entertaining. I really am not worried about Japan having more goodies, the Allies get enough to have
a lot of fun.

4. One item that I do not think is right is the Jack and George being CV capable with such good stats. Generally
if an aircraft goes from a land only aircraft to a CV capable it gains weight and loses speed and maneuverability.
It is something to look at.




Nobody is questioning who made the changes and why. Not me for sure. And it's far from me accusing somebody of wrongdoing. Still, I cannot believe that any vaguely competent Japanese player can play for 600 turns without realising that the economy got these heavy changes. I can believe that for, I dunno, Manpower. I never check it. I take data also from it but in theory I wouldn't need.
Doing everything by hand (well... Technically on Excel...) I could have missed it if I wouldn't have taken the info.

But for such an essential element like OIL... C'mon.


Again, it's a matter of being the most incompetent Japanese player ever, and I don't think so, or not saying a word about these additional resources. Also because, in theory, those "much lower initial stocks" should have brought somebody to check how much is this "much lower". And playing with a constant control of these stocks.
I have yet to see somebody who stretches the economy a lot and never checks it.

It's like driving on the highway well faster than car's safe limits.
Blindfolded.
Under LSD.
On the wrong direction.


The Allied player can always look at the Japanese setup before agreeing to the scenario and vis versa....GP

I like the mod....GP

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AKA General Patton

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(in reply to ITAKLinus)
Post #: 32
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 5:00:45 PM   
BillBrown


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I do too Brian, I have to wonder about all the Japanese players that had experience in stock scenarios who did not notice that
the oil output was higher. I can see John not realizing it since I doubt he has played or looked at a stock scenario for over
9 years. But apparently a lot of people want to tar and feather John over this. John started his first RA mod in March 2010.

Here is screen shot from an RA 5.3, dated in 2012, information screen. Just to show things.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BillBrown -- 12/11/2019 5:06:06 PM >

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 33
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 5:07:07 PM   
btd64


Posts: 7181
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in OHIO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I do too Brian, I have to wonder about all the Japanese players that had experience in stock scenarios who did not notice that
the oil output was higher. I can see John not realizing it since I doubt he has played or looked at a stock scenario for over
9 years. But apparently a lot of people want to tar and feather John over this. John started his firs RA mod in March 2010.


Those players don't have to play it either. And your right about John not playing the stock scenarios in a while....GP

_____________________________

Intel i7 4.3GHz 10th Gen,16GB Ram,Nvidia GeForce MX330

AKA General Patton

WPO,WITP,WITPAE-Mod Designer/Tester
DWU-Beta Tester
TOAW4-Alpha/Beta Tester

I don't like paying for the same real estate twice..Gen. George S. Patton

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 34
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 5:58:24 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2280
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: online
It seems safe to assume that oil was FATR's change. Every other Japanese player of BTS was not aware of it, because they are actually not that good at Japanese economy in stock or DBB Hard to blame them, Japanese economy is dark and full of terrors err.. numbers.

But the change is significant, giving Japan at least 350 additional oil centers compared to DBB-C (or x3.5 domestic oil compared to stock), as I can see from the screenshots. This should be either reverted or explicitly described in the mod outline.

Edit1:There might also a boost to LI/HI compared to DBB-C (there is a boost compared to Stock), which also merits mentioning in the mod description
Edit2: I realized that LI boost is probably DBB compensation for the loss of refinery supply. This leaves HI.

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 12/11/2019 9:53:11 PM >

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 35
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 8:18:15 PM   
Cheesesteak


Posts: 280
Joined: 11/8/2010
From: Richmond, VA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I would like to put in a word or two in support of John.

1. John has been playing only one or the other of his mods for a very long time. He really does not
have a point of reference to "know" that his mod is out of wack. The early versions of his mods
were done by a group of people and he did not always know exactly what was changed.

2. I think fatr made many of the early aircraft and economy modifications. I am not sure which ones John
actually knew about. He has stated that Anshan was increased by fatr very early in the mod cycle. So I would
say that others that played Japan that were experienced Japanese players should have made a comment
at some time.

3. I stated this elsewhere but I need to put it here. I have played as Allies in this mod and find it fun
and entertaining. I really am not worried about Japan having more goodies, the Allies get enough to have
a lot of fun.

4. One item that I do not think is right is the Jack and George being CV capable with such good stats. Generally
if an aircraft goes from a land only aircraft to a CV capable it gains weight and loses speed and maneuverability.
It is something to look at.


+1

Though my version would've been something like: I like making things 'go boom'. Thanks for making something where I can make things 'go boom'.

I'm fancy like that.

_____________________________

"Knowledge is Good" - Emil Faber

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 36
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 3:53:01 AM   
durnedwolf


Posts: 851
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
Status: offline
I think if you wanna whine about something then make your own damned mod. John and others worked on a pretty cool mod and they had a lot of fun making it. A lot of us have a lot of fun playing it. At the end of the day this is game.

If the mod doesn't meet your "standards" then go back to scenario 1 or make your own.

My 2 cents. And now I'm off my soapbox.


_____________________________


DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
Post #: 37
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 4:37:45 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 16822
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
Just got a chance to catch-up on this. It has been a very long work day. While running paperwork between the stores today, had a good chance to talk to Michael about some of this and he warned me to check in. When I got home and got the chance to sit here, I saw several emails/PMs from other players. Just sent this note to Sean after he sent me some good thoughts/suggestions on the Mod:

This is good material to think on. Appreciate the time.

Sean—It is taking nearly every bit of impulse control of mine not to jump onto your AAR and call some people out. I’ve had four people PM/contact me yesterday and today over things being said there. This is not your fault and I understand that but this is becoming a bit more serious then simply playing a match between us.

I know Michael has tried to say things over there but it appears to be no good whatsoever. Is that off-base?

Need some time to think and try to clear my head before I make some decisions…
John


A few thoughts:
1. As commented upon by several people (thank you), I have not played STOCK for a number of years. Have no interest. This AltNavHist has consumed me dating back to when I wrote my Masters Thesis in 1998 entitled Between the Storms: The Impact of Naval Disarmament on the United States Navy, 1922-1936. The name of the Mod comes from there. I am a 'count the bullets' type of person. Ship research, design, modifications, and possibilities fire my imagination. If you truly know me--and it is obvious many in this thread do NOT--you will know that I am about tactics, strategy, ships, the historical figures (ie Yamamoto). You might notice the economy, oil/fuel, and other crap does not. I've left that to others on the team to work on. Ask Michael how well I do installing and using Tracker! My economy is always on the knife's edge of collapse.

2. Over the years there have been many people, as already stated, that have stirred the pot in these Mods. Their time, energy, and commitment are to be commended--not eviscerated by the mob--and I thank each and every one of them for their outstanding work and dedication. Mistakes can happen and have happened over the years. Each time we have set off to correct or modify the issue that was found.

To be clear. I am the creator of this Mod's vision and the buck stops here. I own ANY mistakes here whether I made them or someone else over the last near decade of time.

3. We are doing a comprehensive overhaul of BTS that will then move on to Treaty, RA, and then shorter scenarios.

4. How does one respond to this?

One of the two: either you are the most incompetent Japanese player who has ever been in the forum, and I don't believe so, or saying that you haven't noticed the massive increase in oil production for over 600 turns is, at least, dubious.


To the many other people who have played as the Japanese then, evidently, you are 1. most incompetent Japanese players OR 2. a dubious (?lying?) player of our Mods because you haven't noticed these expressed issues. I think we have had some fine players play both sides and they have gotten a great experience while never feeling this way.


There is a major difference between constructive criticism and personal attack. Do not understand what draws this but others have experienced it. I can remember when several major personalities have walked away for a long period of time due to issues here on the Forum. We need to be watchful of ourselves and what we do/say. This game is a magnificent achievement that have brought a number of amazing people together to form a dynamic and wondrous community. The game, as the community, is not perfect but it is close.



< Message edited by John 3rd -- 12/12/2019 4:41:24 AM >


_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to durnedwolf)
Post #: 38
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 4:59:40 AM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline
I tried to sent you a PM John, your PM box is full.
And it was a long one that I lost.

< Message edited by BillBrown -- 12/12/2019 5:01:00 AM >

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 39
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 7:26:17 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14026
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online
John, I am one of the players writing a few comments in Anchro's AAR, and you can respond to me in any way you like. PM me (I tried you but your box was full at the time) email me directly (niemierik@me.com) or write back here.

I'll detail a few comments below for clarity on the discussion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Ship research, design, modifications, and possibilities fire my imagination. If you truly know me--and it is obvious many in this thread do NOT--you will know that I am about tactics, strategy, ships, the historical figures (ie Yamamoto). You might notice the economy, oil/fuel, and other crap does not. I've left that to others on the team to work on. Ask Michael how well I do installing and using Tracker! My economy is always on the knife's edge of collapse.



In this mod your economy is not on the knife edge of collapse because oil and resource numbers have been increased around the Home Islands enough that Japan would most likely not actually need to go to war at all to meet its peacetime needs. Because this game is about understanding the historical playing field, regardless of your lack of interest in the whole history including the economy, this changes the strategic situation dramatically.

Allied players have even less understanding or interest in the economy than you do, and so they are playing a different game than you are, thinking they should fight to slow Japan's economy when that isn't actually possible until they're in strategic bombing range.

quote:



2. Over the years there have been many people, as already stated, that have stirred the pot in these Mods. Their time, energy, and commitment are to be commended--not eviscerated by the mob--and I thank each and every one of them for their outstanding work and dedication. Mistakes can happen and have happened over the years. Each time we have set off to correct or modify the issue that was found.

To be clear. I am the creator of this Mod's vision and the buck stops here. I own ANY mistakes here whether I made them or someone else over the last near decade of time.

3. We are doing a comprehensive overhaul of BTS that will then move on to Treaty, RA, and then shorter scenarios.

4. How does one respond to this?

One of the two: either you are the most incompetent Japanese player who has ever been in the forum, and I don't believe so, or saying that you haven't noticed the massive increase in oil production for over 600 turns is, at least, dubious.


To the many other people who have played as the Japanese then, evidently, you are 1. most incompetent Japanese players OR 2. a dubious (?lying?) player of our Mods because you haven't noticed these expressed issues. I think we have had some fine players play both sides and they have gotten a great experience while never feeling this way.


There is a major difference between constructive criticism and personal attack. Do not understand what draws this but others have experienced it. I can remember when several major personalities have walked away for a long period of time due to issues here on the Forum. We need to be watchful of ourselves and what we do/say. This game is a magnificent achievement that have brought a number of amazing people together to form a dynamic and wondrous community. The game, as the community, is not perfect but it is close.



In focusing on defending your ignorance of the economy and your inability to account for the changes that have been brought forth you're inviting yourself to these kinds of comments. Calling you out for being incompetent is essentially what you're saying above about yourself (your interest is not sufficient to be a competent economist), but it's still not right and of course we do not want personal attacks here.

If you're a nuts and bolts guy just go into the mod and post the differences from stock in detail and in a format people can understand, like paired screenshots. It's not that hard. If an Allied player can understand what they're getting into then they can play with a completely different strategic focus and have a lot more fun, which is the point, right?

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 40
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 8:22:57 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2280
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: online
Hey, if it my comments about previous BTS Japanese players being not particularly good with comparing the economies of different mods that were considered too personal, I apologize. I never intended it to.

In fact, there is a big difference between being a competent economy player in a particular mod/scenario (most Japan players here fall into this type), and being competent in different economies simultaneously, so that you can spot the difference and alert the public/modders when something is wrong (those players are rare). My comments were about the second, and were meant to be in John's defense.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 41
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 8:34:42 AM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3069
Joined: 3/19/2009
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Well I'll wade in with a few specific questions. What is considered a "small" heavy bomber force? A couple of dozen? A hundred? It seem that that there are way too many heavy bombers in this mod. 2nd question is carrier capable Georges and such? Carrier aircraft were always a compromise. This seems a bit of a stretch. Some of the armored deck CVL's. Again. Compromises. Fast or armored? Japan always seemed to favor speed and agility at the expense of armor in many things. As US torpedoes do not work armoring the flight decks of carries severely impedes the ability of the Allies to damage, much less sink, Japanese carriers. That seems a significant handicap in a game features carrier warfare. And then the conversions to full size CV? Seems to be ambitious

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 12/12/2019 11:01:39 AM >


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Post #: 42
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 8:56:30 AM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 321
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline
I report you my initial post on Anachro's AAR. Since I don't give any sensitive information, I can post it here as well:


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Ok.

I think there might be a heavy basic mistake in the assessment of Japanese industrial capacity in this MOD.

A couple of months ago I was giving advice to an Italian player on the Italian forum who had troubles in grasping Japanese economy.

Now, he was in April 42 (first week of it) playing BTS-Heavy. I guess something changes from Lite but the description given in the website is the same regarding economy.



Well. In the website it's stated that there are "far less initial stocks". It's somehow a lie.

I don't use tracker and I play only Scen1. In my last two games as Japan, I begun to do standardized monthly checks on Excel. I have them for each month, registering stocks, production, gain/loss over last month, gain/loss over 7th dec and changes in percentage.

I compared them with the guy's industrial screens.

Please note that he conquered the historical perimeter plus useless Pacific islands, plus Aleutinans. No industrial base from those conquests. He got stuck in China conquering just the plains between Hankow and Nanyang.
NOTHING MORE.
He has taken many oilfields badly damaged as far as I have understood (and seen from industrial screen).
Little to none HI expansion.


What I did understand analysing his industrial screens is that:
- Japan begins with 3-400k less fuel in the initial stock
- There are way more HI/LI/OIL in Japanese hands
- Supplies are the same


To make a comparison of the magnitude of the "more HI" thing. I compared the data of guy's game to mine of my 2 Japanese PBEMs.
Results:
- Conquering the WHOLE India (bar Karachi), plus China, netted me roughly the same amount of his HIs. (16.000)
- Conquering EVERY oilfield basically intact (bar Miri which starts with 150 damage) and repairing Miri netted me roughly 31.500-32.000 OIL production [from the industrial screen]. He got MORE than 32.000 without China, India, Miri repaired and with many oilfields trashed. Potential production, including "disabled" was well above 38.000.
- Conquering the WHOLE Australia (bar Sidney and Tasmania) netted me way less HI. Don't make me speak about LI and OIL because I would simply start crying in a corner.
- Running the whole freaking IJN boosted by dozzilions of ships for 30 days per months, apparently, still makes possible to have a nice positive FUEL production. I am in red whenever I decide to run continuous operations. My rule of thumb after I complete my intended strategic goals is to have the whole surface fleet disbanded 20 days per month at minimum and the KB disbanded 15 days per month at minimum. He didn't even optimised cargo classes. And he was gaining A LOT of fuel (+ 15.000 accordingly to his tracker. Dunno what that amount means since I don't use tracker).



Now, it's true that more HIs, more pilots and more ships imply a much higher fuel consumption. But I haven't seen that in his game.
It's true that I have done very tough fights in both the PBEMs for which I recorded economical info. But I had also conquered a lot.
It's true that this is a fantasy MOD while I'm a "scen1 purist". But, at least in his case, the entire "much lower initial stock" thing is a plain lie.



I might be completely wrong under every possible point of view, since the guy was playing BTS-H, but I am fairly sure of what I say about it. I mean, he posted his economy so there isn't much to doubt about.




As you can see, nobody, for sure not me, has ever attacked you. Or your MOD. Or whatever. Simply, I stated that saying that Japanese economy has far reduced initial stocks and it's in a dire situation, it's a lie. You don't want to call it a "lie", finding the term offensive? Fair enough. Call it "a huge misrepresentation". Or whatever you prefer. But tell the truth on the website and to everyone.



Regarding the "attack" made in my above post.

It's quite straightforward from my point of view. Either you say you haven't realised that you had wonderful industrial capacity or you realised that and you didn't say a word. There are no other possible options, to be honest.
You adopted the "I didn't know" line of defence. Again, fair enough. I simply find quite difficoult to believe that you haven't realised that for over 600 turns just against Anachro, but it's ok. Since, again, I have nothing against you or the MOD per-se, my point is not attacking you or demonstrating something specifically aimed against you. My aim is to simply support all those people who started a game with a completely different idea regarding Japanese economy and, to do so, inform potential players of what the reality actually is.

Therefore, I am personally quite dubious about the fact that you haven't realised it, but, finally, I am not interested at all in demonstrating you did, or going against you as an individual. Let's take for granted that you have never checked your oil/fuel/supplies stocks. Let's take for granted that you haven't posed yourself a single question regarding the fact you are able to support an incredibly expanded industrial base and sail around with Japanese huge fleet, while it's notorious it's not that feasible even with many many less capital ships and industrial base in stock game. Let's take for granted you know so little about Japanese economy that you haven't ever noticed different oil production levels for many bases around the map.
Also, differently from what people such as durnedwolf might have read and understood, I have never questioned the MOD per-se. As far as I am concerned, you can even put flying Yamatos and, if the other player knows and agrees, play with flying BBs and have fun with the game.

I am not interested at all in each of these elements. Others might be, I am not.

Instead, I am interested in having the industrial issue solved and precisely described in MOD's website for all those players who got somehow entangled in the MOD with very, very different expectations. Somebody who is less than a stellar player can only have troubles in fighting Japan exactly because of that. Anachro, being a wonderful player, is keeping his positions and fighting back really well, but he's among the very, very few blessed players able to fight in whatever conditions. He's not the average. Far from it.


I hope I have clarified my position.

< Message edited by ITAKLinus -- 12/12/2019 9:07:27 AM >


_____________________________

Francesco

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 43
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 10:40:50 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9748
Joined: 1/10/2005
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I will take the blame for ALL economic mistakes, incomitance, stupidity, etc. Things were done years ago for various reasons that I cannot totally recall at this time. Even if I attempt to explain why changes were made, it seems they are not good enough for the critics of this mod. John can make posting on the subject here, but not me. I will continue to work with John on this mod to improve it for those who are interested in playing it.

Last night I pulled up the Editor for the new master version and then did the same for DBB scenario 28. I went through bases in Japan and rest ALL to what was there. In my further work with the mod I WILL NOT touch anything else with the economy to keep the purist at bay.

Gone, but not forgotten.

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
Post #: 44
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 11:22:25 AM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 321
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

I will take the blame for ALL economic mistakes, incomitance, stupidity, etc. Things were done years ago for various reasons that I cannot totally recall at this time. Even if I attempt to explain why changes were made, it seems they are not good enough for the critics of this mod. John can make posting on the subject here, but not me. I will continue to work with John on this mod to improve it for those who are interested in playing it.

Last night I pulled up the Editor for the new master version and then did the same for DBB scenario 28. I went through bases in Japan and rest ALL to what was there. In my further work with the mod I WILL NOT touch anything else with the economy to keep the purist at bay.

Gone, but not forgotten.




Ehi, no necessity to take the blame on anything! At least, that's my perspective. And, also, I think nobody would say a word about the legitimacy of an increased resource base for Japan. I mean, it's your MOD and you do what you want and if people wanna play it, they shouldn't complain about.

On the other side, that's my entire point from the very beginning: please write precisely the differences so that people know what they are "buying", if you get what I am trying to express. I believe that some people, at least me, got disturbed by the fact that the economical situation has been misrepresented in MOD's webpage and here on the forum: some players went into the game, also for quite a long time, without knowing it.



Again, there is no attack whatsoever on you guys or blame for someone to be taken. I guess the entire discussion could have been fairly easily skipped by a simple "oh yeah, we're gonna put a more detailed description in the webpage and give accounts of that on the forum". At least, that would have been just ok-ish for me since I don't carry any prejudice or personal stuff.

I mean, I am even available to check the economical stuff doing the job of putting on the table the differences and their consequences if you don't wanna bother with the work. I repeat for the 100th time because I haven't been clear enough eventually: there is no attack, nothing personal, nothing against the MOD per-se from my side. I have brought up the economical differences in Anachro's AAR because he, and others, weren't aware of them and I stated (and keep stating) that giving the impression that Japanese economy is much weaker or less resilient is a lie. Unintended probably. Call it "unintended misrepresentation" if you prefer: from my side, I am fine with whatever definition.

_____________________________

Francesco

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 45
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 11:51:39 AM   
BillBrown


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I was working on a mod of my own, but now I think I will just put it on the shelf for now.

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Post #: 46
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 3:14:33 PM   
John 3rd


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...exactly what I am afraid of...

If you didn't notice within Michael's (NYGiants) Post above, he is done being on the Forum for a while.

Chilling is the effect we're talking about here.

I have cleaned out my PM box. Sorry about it being full!





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Post #: 47
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 3:20:29 PM   
btd64


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John, Some people just have to be a pain in the **s. I hope Mike continues to post....GP

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Post #: 48
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 3:22:10 PM   
John 3rd


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If you have suggestions, ideas, concerns, and/or proposals we are quite happy to listen to them and bounce thoughts around. If we don't use them then GET OVER IT! These Mods are done to our AltNavHist vision. Am quite amenable to ideas and discussion but it is ours to run with and other who CHOOSE to play.

If you don't choose to play them then that is your CHOICE and leave it be!

So Michael, last night, cleaned up the Home Islands and brought them into sync with DaBabes original numbers. When he completes the China work it will come back to me and I will then go thru and bring the HI, LI, Supply, Resource, Fuel, and Oil numbers to where they are supposed to be. Those changes will be Posted here for thought/comment.


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Post #: 49
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 3:27:05 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

...exactly what I am afraid of...

If you didn't notice within Michael's (NYGiants) Post above, he is done being on the Forum for a while.

Chilling is the effect we're talking about here.

I have cleaned out my PM box. Sorry about it being full!




It's odd that after so much work on this mod critique is thought of as rude, and attacking. As I read the comments the majority ask what is going on with increased oil/resources and why it's not mentioned in the notes about the scenario. I called it a joke, but I hope you can see why I would say that. If Japan had so much oil and so many resources, would they have risked Pearl Harbor?

Since you've decided on a match with Dan (and apparently he has accepted) which as you say would have a large following, doesn't it make sense to have everything on the table before that one begins? As you said earlier, that's what this thread is about.

Everything going on in Anachro's AAR is about that game, the different strategic playing field he is now encountering since he suddenly has become aware of Japan's increased oil/resources production and what that means.

Michael keeps talking about blame. Who cares? It's not about who did what, and apparently no one knows anyway. It is about what is in the mod and how that is communicated to those who play it on both sides.

I hope Michael will reenter the discussion, but if not, that's his decision. We're all adults here.


< Message edited by obvert -- 12/12/2019 3:28:12 PM >


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Post #: 50
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 3:30:23 PM   
John 3rd


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Wanted to thank you Sean for what he said on his AAR last night. He is a good, young player and I was impressed with his decision and words. Very decent and thoughtful. That is something that, occasionally, can be in short supply these days.

THANKS SEAN!



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Post #: 51
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 3:34:05 PM   
John 3rd


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As to the whole CRISIS regarding GEORGE and JACK being CV-Capable, we'll have see just how big a change that is. In so many ways Sean and I's game has been a great play test for the Mod. We have identified issues as we go and there have been changes made as we've identified them. It is late-August 43 and I don't have either plane yet. Looks like I'll see one in Dec 43 and then we'll see if it is as HORRIBLE as some people think it will be. That bridge will be crossed when we get there...




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Post #: 52
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 3:47:27 PM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

...exactly what I am afraid of...

If you didn't notice within Michael's (NYGiants) Post above, he is done being on the Forum for a while.

Chilling is the effect we're talking about here.

I have cleaned out my PM box. Sorry about it being full!




It's odd that after so much work on this mod critique is thought of as rude, and attacking. As I read the comments the majority ask what is going on with increased oil/resources and why it's not mentioned in the notes about the scenario. I called it a joke, but I hope you can see why I would say that. If Japan had so much oil and so many resources, would they have risked Pearl Harbor?

Since you've decided on a match with Dan (and apparently he has accepted) which as you say would have a large following, doesn't it make sense to have everything on the table before that one begins? As you said earlier, that's what this thread is about.

Everything going on in Anachro's AAR is about that game, the different strategic playing field he is now encountering since he suddenly has become aware of Japan's increased oil/resources production and what that means.

Michael keeps talking about blame. Who cares? It's not about who did what, and apparently no one knows anyway. It is about what is in the mod and how that is communicated to those who play it on both sides.

I hope Michael will reenter the discussion, but if not, that's his decision. We're all adults here.



Obvert--Thank You--I think we just demonstrated this by his going thru the Home Islands and taking them to the correct numbers from the original DaBabes. As I said just a bit ago, the files will come back and I will Post the changes here and why within Mod justification.

Am all for comment and discussion but that is NOT what went on by all yesterday. You know this. As to the comment about Sean's AAR discussion your comment is not entirely true either. He and others told me there have been personal commentary that dates back to Dan's last game with me. I can handle that. Read most of Dan's AAR after our last match ended and it really pissed me off. NOTHING like that was in my AAR vs him.

Sean said it quite well "In my exchanges with him up to now, he's been a perfect gentleman; and yes, we're all aware that he can wear his heart on his sleeve through both good and bad times. Sometimes he riles up his opponent through gloating, sometimes he's overly boisterous, but it's all meant in good spirit for a game I've no doubt he truly enjoys." He is right in his summary though I have really tempered my BANZAIs as Dan would call them. Have really tried to dial it back so nothing is given away prior to a turn as well as personal discussion AFTER a turn. Am TRYING to grow as a player here!

Don't understand it but can handle it. Why does it have to be personal? Why does it have to be snarky and personal? These are legitimate queries. Doesn't happen in other AARs. Why does it have to happen there and here?

In the long run it doesn't matter but it is still irritating.



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Post #: 53
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 3:55:29 PM   
John 3rd


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OK--for DISCUSSION--here is the CV-Capable JACK. First JACK comes out in 1/43 goes to the M3 shown here and then (14 months later after the introduction of M2) we get the 3a. SR is raised back up to 3 to reflect the issues of much more challenging landings and take offs. They are hangar queens.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 12/12/2019 4:05:40 PM >


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Post #: 54
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 3:59:00 PM   
Anachro


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I think rather than getting into a pissing match, it'd best to drop the personal stuff from all sides and focus on critiques of the mod. Contrary to what some state or characterize here, critiques are perfectly valid and shouldn't be slandered as "whining," though I can see why some of the criticism might have been taken too personally. I feel very strongly that we correctly identified an issue in the mod relating to the Japanese domestic boost (and elsewhere?) to fuel/resources, as it detracts from the interesting trade-offs introduced by the mod's alternate history. That said, I certainly do not think the mod team was malicious in implementing it and trust the comments here fully to that effect. As I said last night in our email exchanges, John, most of the "bashing" in the AAR has been towards the mod and not towards you personally. But this, of course, is my opinion.

I'm tired of all this drama, so can we just get on with the match? Is my turn ready yet?

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Post #: 55
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 4:07:22 PM   
John 3rd


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Am TRYING to work on it as we speak. Expect something shortly! Have been more then a little occupied with all this.


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Post #: 56
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 4:08:05 PM   
John 3rd


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Will Post the GEORGE after I have sent a turn to my esteemed opponent.


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Post #: 57
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/12/2019 5:15:49 PM   
JohnDillworth


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All things else being equal wouldn't the stronger landing gear and arresting gear required for carrier fighters have some negative impact on performance? Carrier fighters simply had to be a bit sturdier than land based aircraft

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RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/13/2019 10:29:47 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Obvert--Thank You--I think we just demonstrated this by his going thru the Home Islands and taking them to the correct numbers from the original DaBabes. As I said just a bit ago, the files will come back and I will Post the changes here and why within Mod justification.



Interesting. Apparently, although Michael was very vague on this, these numbers were changed to reflect an insufficiency in fuel/resources to supply the much increased HI/LI of BTS. I asked him to state this more clearly so we could know if that is exactly what he meant. This is the discussion. I've added bold to his very imprecise language regarding these changes.



quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

The tinkering of economy in response to HI was done as I didn’t know it was possible to adjust input requirements. Brian and I did a restart into late 42 before discovering there were still issues. I had a learning curve on the Editor for some issues. I accidentally stumbled upon how to change rookie pilot experience during this tinkering. Still learning on Editor as I use it infrequently.



quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
What issues? If you want someone to understand, please state the details. Was the increased economy too robust to exist on stock oil and resources centres? Were the issues involving crashing the economy?

I earlier voiced concern about one of these versions after the George became CV capable and I looked into the mod. With a cursory look around I noticed a few of the oil centres on Java were increased, some resource centres. I never thought to look on the Home Islands.

I did voice to John that this was inaccurate as Japan actually didn't even get the capacity out of the Dutch oil that the devs gave us players in stock. So to add more seemed like real cheese. To add them in the Home Islands is really taking the piss and becomes a HUGE strategic advantage the Allied player needs to understand.



quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Somehow the values of fuel and resources to generate HI were increased. By end of 42 I knew something about was wrong. Didn’t know those values could be changed and where to do so. I use Tracker but didn’t see the changes for some time. I think I changed the fuel and resources in response to fix. Next restart showed issues in mid-42. I found the proper fix then. At time there were multiple slots for BTS versions and RA. John may have used one of these versions for the current one being used in this game and mine. Hopefully our work to create a master file will minimize these issues going forward.



quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I don't understand. What was wrong?

Were oil(fuel)/resources insufficient for the increased HI/LI?

If the increased HI/LI couldn't be supported by the well researched and already generous oil and resources available to Japan after their conquest of the SRA, wouldn't decreasing the HI/LI be the natural response?




quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

It's your reading comprehension, young man.



As you can see, Michael did not state clearly what actually was deficient, what was changed and then insulted my reading comprehension instead of answering my questions more directly.

So you can see why others may have questioned the integrity of a MOD that purported to be one thing, but was really quite a another.

quote:


Am all for comment and discussion but that is NOT what went on by all yesterday. You know this. As to the comment about Sean's AAR discussion your comment is not entirely true either. He and others told me there have been personal commentary that dates back to Dan's last game with me. I can handle that. Read most of Dan's AAR after our last match ended and it really pissed me off. NOTHING like that was in my AAR vs him.

Don't understand it but can handle it. Why does it have to be personal? Why does it have to be snarky and personal? These are legitimate queries. Doesn't happen in other AARs. Why does it have to happen there and here?

In the long run it doesn't matter but it is still irritating.



As to these comments, I just read through the two pages of Anachro's AAR carefully and thoughtfully, and there were no directly rude or malicious comments made about you or Michael. The majority of the comments were focused objectively on the BTS mod and the lack of communication regarding these economic changes, as well as data demonstrating just how far the changes had gone.

The most direct, personal and antagonistic comment was actually Michael (above) calling out my reading comprehension!!

There was a realisation that your game style, which we all know is to run the KB and all other combat ships around the map continually, was supported by this unrealistic boost in the Japanese ability to produce oil and resources in the Home Islands and surrounding areas, plus the increases made further afield in the SRA. Players who play Japan had often wondered how a player who himself states he doesn't like or care about the running of the economy could make this work when those bean counters amount us who look at tracker daily can't manage it.

No one called you names. There were a lot of people who came in and actually said they didn't care, because it was fun, and the most dominant feature of everyone's comments were that whatever change was/is made should be communicated so the Allied player knows what they're getting into playing this version of Japan, since all known strategic thought goes out the window if Japan is not dependent on the SRA for it's oil and resources.

Anachro is a great host in the AAR and I think his comment was to direct players back to the game and away from the BTS critique more than anything.

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Post #: 59
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/13/2019 11:04:40 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

All things else being equal wouldn't the stronger landing gear and arresting gear required for carrier fighters have some negative impact on performance? Carrier fighters simply had to be a bit sturdier than land based aircraft


A good starting point for the effect of changes to CV capable would be the Spitfire variants. The Spit Mk V was the first one used as the basis for a Seafire. A Spit Mk V had a reported top speed of 369mph.

In game we only have the reduced capability Spit VC trop variant with the dust filter on the front. This only gets to 357mph.

A Seafire IIC (based on the Mk VB) is listed in game at 342mph with significant drops in manoeuvre and climb rate even from the already inhibited Mk VC trop. See below.







Attachment (1)

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