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New Between the Storms Direction - 12/2/2019 10:34:26 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 16822
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
Hello All.

I am starting a new scenario design thread due to plans for making major changes within the Mod family started by Stanislav, Michael, and myself years ago. Currently the Mods exist as Treaty Mod 1922-1936, Reluctant Admiral 1936-1945, and Between the Storms Lite and Heavy 1922-1945.

Have been asking myself where to go from these Mods?

Michael and I have been drawn to Brian Wisher's (Big B) Mod work for a long time. I've always wanted to do a March 1942 start so players don't have to do the same-old/Same-old of starting the war and started to use his Mod for that very purpose. The problem was a sheer amount of work to change everything and place EVERYTHING for a March 42 start drove me away. It would be fun but too much time.

So, once again, where to go?

Think we have settled on a long-term plan for transitioning the work and going in some new directions. Here is what we are thinking:

1. Using the current Mods, Michael is creating a 'Master' file for the Between the Storms family that contains everything. All the changes in planes, ships, and other things will be in on file where I can then simply 'click' what is active and what is not to bring a unified, cohesive Treaty, RA, and BTS set of scenarios. In doing this, we stick to our original template of DaBabes but will will bring in some of Brian's well thought out changes from his Big B's Mod. We will adopt--with his permission--his China deployment, ship changes, and some aerial modifications.

This is what we are doing right now and hope to release within a few weeks. We'l hope for just before Christmas.

These Mods will have all the bells and whistles currently in there: Off-Map Allied Air Purchase System (thanks Juan) slow movement, stacking limits, and extended map.

2. While point 1 is being done, we will create separate installs of Brian's Mod.

3. Once set and running, we will take our modified OOB and apply it to Brian's two small scenarios: Wake Island and Coral Sea. These small, quick scenarios will allow us to bring in the changes we've done in the current Mods. In the newest BTS, Wake begins with TWO Marine Defense Bn, PBY and Fighters, more supply and fuel, better Base prep, and PT-Boats. Add a few of the new ships allowed by the Treaty changes or differing construction and VIOLA we have a BTS--Wake Island scenario. The same will apply for Coral Sea. YUMMY!

4. When we have rolled these two Mods out, we change to fully transferring BTS into Brian's Grand Campaign.

This is not going to be an overnight project. Realistically, I cannot imagine having the last step done until the beginning of summer. Our plan gives us a longer-ranged goal and provide the players all sorts of new opportunities for playing some serious ALTNAV scenarios.


Special THANKS to Big B for allowing and encouraging us to do this!


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 12/2/2019 10:36:44 PM >


_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/
Post #: 1
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/4/2019 9:43:26 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 16822
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
OK. First Post we'll start with is Big B's READ ONLY file describing his work and changes. Keep in mind we'll use some but not all of these changes in our hybrid scenarios. Once we transition fully over, then all of these changes will apply. This is a long Posting next!

_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 2
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/4/2019 9:43:58 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 16822
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
READ ME – B-Mod Introduction:
I was a member of the Henderson Field Designs AE Development team.
With that experience, and some knowledge of the development of WitP:AE, I undertook to design my own mod, adding to the mod experience I had in AE's predecessor - War in the Pacific:The Struggle Against Japan 1941-1945.
B-MOD - STOCK MAP MOD, whose main focus is greater Historical Combat Realism, and new Improved Artwork for ships and aircraft.

The Ultimate goal of B-Mod is to drag this basically 'sound' game into a more realistic representation of the Asia/Pacific War of 1941-1945.

__________________________________________________________________________
SCENARIO DETAILS:

B-MOD Scenario 191 Relief of Wake Island, Dec 1941: This is an original B-Mod scenario, detailing the historical attempted USN & USMC Relief of the embattled Wake Island in Dec 1941. All the historical units involved in the effort on both sides are present in this short battle scenario, and explorers the 'What-If' situation had the United States Not canceled the the expedition that was underway in Dec 1941. This scenario has all of the B-Mod modifications below.
__________________________________________________________________________

B-MOD Scenario 192 Battle of The Coral Sea: This short battle scenario has all of the B-Mod modifications below, as will pertain to Stock Scenario 3. Added the many missing air & naval units to flesh out the Order Of Battle for both sides.
__________________________________________________________________________
B-MOD Scenario 197: Grand Campaign December 7th 1941. With all B-Mod modifications detailed below.

Overview: B-Mod is a much more complete historical simulation of the Asia/Pacific War of 1941 – 1945(6) than Stock.
There are a number of changes that effect both sides – enumerated below.
Overall, this mod could be viewed as more difficult for the Japanese player – although there are several improvements that are directed specifically at Japan, in all honesty there are more changes that help the INITIAL Allied situation as well (mostly involving China and the DEI).
Th crucial year is 1942 where many of this mod's changes are in effect, but both sides benefit from this in 1942. and after.


Latest Update; October 10, 2019:
Added Andy Mac's new bases;
1603 MALAYA
1604 Sungei Pantani
1605 Kuala Kangsar
1606 Kuala Krai
1607 Jerantut
1608 Port Dickson
1609 Kluang
1610 Ipoh
1611 Batang Padang

1618 BURMA
1619 Donbaik
1620 Sittang Bridge
1621 Paingkyon
1622 Karen Hills
1623 Kachin Hills
1624 Gokteik Viaduct
1625 Yamethin
1626 Myingyan
1627 Pauk
1628 Kawludo
1629 Phyu
1630 Daik - u
1631 Chin Hills
1632 Mount Victoria
1633 Arakan Yoma (N)
1634 Arakan Yoma (C)
1635 Arakan Yoma (S)
1636 Thanbyuzayat
1637 Ye
1638 Tanbaya
1639 Three Pagoda's Pass
1640 Nieke
1641 Bampong
1642 Tenchung
1643 Fort Hertz
1644 Lushai Hills
1645 Gangaw
1646 Tiddim
1647 Naga Hills
1648 Kabaw Valley
1649 Pangsau Pass
1650 Hukawng Valley

1653 AUSTRALIA
1654 Wilcannia
1655 Ivanhoe
1656 Jervis Bay
1657 Wodonga
1658 Yaraka
1659 Quilpie
1660 Eucla
1661 Norseman
1662 Rawlinna
1663 Leonora
1664 Wiluna
1665 Sandstone
1666 Fitzroy
1667 Carnegie
1668 Kokoda Trail
1669 Ballarat
1670 Ararat
1671 Clare
1672 Warnambool
1673 Reid River
1674 Port Macquarie
1675 Mackay
1676 Katoomba
1677 Goulburn
1678 Casino
1679 Croydon
1680 Forasyth
1681 Puckapunyal
1682 Greta

1684 NZ
1685 Oamaru
1686 Westport
1687 Wanganui
1688 Tauranga
1689 Waiouru
1690 Desmond
1691 Plaine Des Gaiacs
1692 New Plymouth

1694 CHINA
1695 Yaowang Mtn
1696 Yuntsi
1697 Yuanku
1699 Yutze
1700 Pingyao
1701 Linfan
1702 Anyi
1703 Ban'an
1705 Nanchuan
1706 Wulong


Previous updates:
1) Put L2D2 Tabby into limited production Dec 1941;
2) Added missing Coast Guard cutters (added from DBB Database);
3) Minor DB fixes to a few Chinese units upgrade path;
4) Identified and fixed the problem with the Ohka series flying bombs being unavailable (problem inherited from stock).
5) Fulmar II updated production and role change to Dive Bomber 6/42.
6) Australian B-25 armor updated.
7) Many US Divisions that are missing for a reaction to an invasion of USA added under restricted command, and have a departure date of 10/1942. Details below.

Garrison Requirements in China: Major – Major changes in China, see China notes below.

IJN Cruisers and Destroyers: Added 13.2mm AA Machine Guns to the 1941 build (slot 1377) Momo class DDs. All Cruisers and Destroyers have generally had their speeds increased to match the vast majority of published material.

Japanese Aircraft: All Japanese two machine gun fighters (A5M4, KI-27b, KI-43 series) have been given a firepower bonus (Double stock Firepower).

D3A1 & D3A2 Val Divebomber : Once again has the 250kg SAP bomb for Naval Attack and Port Attack Missions (anti-shipping) retaining the 250kg GP bomb for other missions.

Fighter Aircraft: All fighters have had stats reviewed, and some corrected – to assure uniform aircraft modeling at the same combat weights.

Under -represented Key Aircraft: Some key aircraft have had production numbers modified (such as the B-25C, Wellington Ic Wellington B.X, LaGG-3, and MiG-3).
[The Fire Power Bonus also applies to the Two-MG principal Russian fighters as well (LaGG-3 and MiG-3)]. These aircraft have had production increased by the rule of Less Than 10% of Historical production rate.
In other words – these aircraft have had availability in-game increased – but not to equal or exceed 10% of historical production (replacements increased – not new squadrons).
There are also several other aircraft who have had their production cycles (dates) modified to reflect the fact that aircraft production – does not stop with a several month or year long gap between production models (such as LB-30 to B-24D, etc), and closer to actual availability.
The reason is – many of these aircraft are vastly under-represented in the game (equivalent generally to only about 2 % of actual production, or absolutely missing entirely).

No Japanese aircraft have had production numbers modified – simply because for Japan: A) the starting production schedule 'in place' is accurate for Japan, negating the need to correct aircraft production schedules and availability, and B) The Japanese player controls their own production.

Heavy Bombers: American Heavy Bombers (B-17, B-24, & B-29) equipped with power turrets have had those weapons boosted in accuracy rating (fully powered turrets, with reflector gun sights, are much more accurate than hand held machine-guns...And – this will help reflect the Mutual Support that American Heavy Bomber units had – with their unique tactical doctrine – the Bomber Box).

US Mark 14 Torpedo: USN Mark 14 torpedo performance has been thoroughly researched, game tested, and subsequently modified (Using the JANAC resource of real maritime losses of Japanese ships in WW2).
The stock profile is %80 dud rate from Dec 1941 through Dec 1942, dropping to %60 dud rate in Jan 1943 to Sep 1943, then becoming the standard (for all torpedoes) %10 dud rate thereafter.
This has been found to be grossly overstated (and mathematically impossible). Research has shown key changes taking place Mar/April1942, and again in 1943.
The new profile is:

Dec 1941-Mar 1942: %80 dud rate
April – Dec 1942: %50 dud rate
Jan – Sep 1943: %30 dud rate
Sep 1943 on : %10 dud rate.
This much more accurately conforms to historical USN Fleet boat performance, (although will still not actually reach historical Mark 14 Torpedo performance) and in-game performance has proven to be closely approximate to historical performance.
Prolonged play-testing has shown that 'in-game' results now vastly more reflect historical results and outcomes.

New ship and aircraft art: New ship art as well as Cathartes new 'plane tops', Both Allied & Japanese, are included.

New warship stats (all nations): Made extensive use of Nathan Okun's WWII gun & armor Resources; combined with new warship tonnage and durability ratings.
Durability is calculated from average deep load displacement – to effect the truest picture of the size of the vessel or platform.
Tonnage is on a bit of a sliding scale – taken from Trials Displacement - to an average Deep Load Displacement.
British Empire and Imperial Japanese Navy Armor Plate is calculated at the then used 40lb-inch (24.9mm inch as opposed to the later standardized 25.4mm inch), which is appropriate for the WW II era.

(There is a spreadsheet available for viewing and download with ALL warships covered, HERE in the Workbench section. Includes all stats and formulas.)

Allied Destroyers and small Light Cruisers now have a troop transport capacity equivalent to their Japanese counterparts by hull size. Unlike their Japanese counterparts - they DO NOT have any cargo capacity. This capability has been restored as it was available in original War in the Pacific.

British CV's Illustrious Class and Hermes:
The Illustrious class has been reviewed and modified in air group stowage capability, according to their 1941 refits (pre-Pearl Harbor). Aircraft capacity is now rated at 41.
The Hermes now has available the refit she was scheduled to receive in 1939, but was never carried out due to pressing wartime need for her services. The refit is available after March 1942 (beyond the historical time of her sinking).

Fairy Fulmar II:
In June 1942 the British certified the Fulmar II for Dive Bombing ( full 60 degree dive) with a 500lb bomb. Fulmar II's have been re-designated as Dive Bombers beginning in June 1942, with production ending in 1943 (the production cycle of the Fulmar II).

Suffolk and Cumberland are now a sub-class of Kent class – with new ship art.

British Carriers: British Warships WILL NOT begin to withdraw until the second half of 1943. This was done because even though this game is sophisticated and complex, there is no game mechanism to trigger withdrawal only AFTER a Battle of Midway like event
HMS Repulse: HMS Repulse now has an option to undergo a 9 month rebuild to convert to sister ship HMS Renown class. Should Repulse survive the opening moves, it may go to a level 100 or greater ship repair yard (generally Off-Map) to undergo modernization.

Clemson, Wickes, & Sampson Class Destroyers: 5 Clemson Class Destroyers started the war using 5”x51 gun main armament instead of 4”x50's like their classmates. These 5 DD's have been so modified to their original configuration – as well as an option to re-arm the other Clemson's with this weapon if the player chooses
British 45th & 61st Infantry Divisions:
These two British Infantry Divisions were both raised in 1939, and never left the UK during the war (although the 61st actually ended the war under Eastern Command). Since this mod is more open for unit redeployment due to increased Political Points – they have been included in the OOB. They appear in 1942 in the UK since both sides are capable of deploying more expeditionary forces than they actually did in this mod.
British 5thInfantry Division:
This Division was landed in India in 1942, while two of it's it's brigades were supporting invasions of French Africa in 1942. Eventually the division was reunited in India in later 1942. This Division and it's brigades appear in India in 1942 as it historically happened. The Division will depart in 1943 as was historical.

KNIL Army:
The KNIL Army Command, (slot #107) is not a restricted command. This means Dutch units may load up on transports and be relocated to other islands.
Furthermore, Dutch Infantry and Dutch Combat Engineers (and other devices) will replenish from 42 to 45 uninterrupted, should any units survive Japanese conquest of the DEI.

Armor: All armor in game have been looked at and modified where appropriate, also re-introduced Soviet T-34B (T-34/76 M41), and T-34C (T-34/76 M43) and the KV to IS series Heavy Tanks into the game.

Truk : The missing small submarine repair shipyard has been added.


US ARMY INVASION REACTION : There has been added a number of units of the U.S. Army, that were already trained and active duty as of December 1941. These include the following units:
US II Armored Corps HQ, US II Corps HQ, US IV Corps HQ, US VII Corps HQ, US VIII Corps HQ, US 1st Armored Div (Hvy),US 2nd Armored Div (Hvy), US 3rd Armored Div (Hvy), US 1st Infantry Div, US 2nd Infantry Div, US 4th Infantry Div, US 5th Infantry Div, US 6th Infantry Div, US 8th Infantry Div, US 9th Infantry Div, US 34th Infantry Div, US 36th Infantry Div, and US 45th Infantry Div....all of these units are NOT included in the stock OOB for 1941.

All of these units were on active duty and had trained in the Louisiana Maneuvers (a multi-Corps level exercise taken place across the South in the summer of 1941).
There are another half dozen divisions that are not included here, but could have been expected to protect Eastern zones of the US.

Those units that are included - are all regular Army, or were advanced enough in TO&E and training to take part in the invasion of North Africa in November 1942, but reflect their training level as of Dec 1941 (about 50 exp).

All of the above units are in their place of the country that they occupied in Dec 1941, and furthermore have their Historical commanding general as of December 1941. All of these units are under restricted command, and will depart the OOB as of their historical movement overseas to the European Theater. They are included now in the starting OOB for the United States – to be ready to realistically react to a Japanese invasion of the USA in 1941 – 1942.

CHINA:
Nationalist China has undergone major changes.
Japanese Garrison requirements in China/Manchuria/Korea: After extensive testing, the garrison requirement for the Japanese in China-Manchuria-Korea has been increased across those areas.
The Garrison size reflects the population density, development, and terrain in the nearby area.
Urban hexes require a division size garrison (420 points), High population density agricultural/industrial base hexes require a brigade (240 points), while other base hexes will require between regimental size (usually 120 points) to battalion size garrisons (generally 60 points – but as low as 30 or 40 points)...a string of adjacent base hexes may lower the requirements above.
Japan starts Dec 7th with approximately 34,000 points in infantry Assault Value - between IJ Army, SNLF, and allies (this number increases to over 37,000 if armor and engineer AV is added). The new garrison requirements cost of 10,900 Assault Value in occupied China/Manchuria/Korea . As new territorial conquests occur – garrison costs will of course go up.
The above guidelines are undoubtedly way too light (judging by U.S. Experience in South Vietnam 1965-1972, a nation only 1/3 the size of California) – but will be a big improvement in the Chinese land war – complimenting the fact that about one-third of the Chinese Army is static.
This will help recreate the difficulty and troop drain of occupying the largest population on Earth – in a continental sized country. See Below -
Above are the figures from the game;






As can be seen, a garrison cost of 10,900 Assault Value – is less than half the Dec 7th AV already in China alone.

Furthermore, an AV of 10,900 equates to a mere 163,500 men (10,900 x 15 man squads).
Imagine occupying an area from Newfoundland Canada to El Paso Texas, with a hostile population well over 300 Million, with only 163,500 troops armed primarily with 1920's technology - it would be clearly impossible.
However they just may be able to patrol the highways – which is exactly what Japan controlled in occupied China at that time. Korea is included, because of the brutal occupation necessary to hold Korea since 1905 – a story in its own right.
Note that the 'At Start' garrison requirements are met - it is only 'additional territorial conquest that will begin to be a problem.

This will greatly restrict the usual a-historical rapid conquest of China in most games, and return it to a more realistic world....because it begs the question - “where will you get the additional manpower needed to maintain control of a vast hostile conquered area and population?


Supply has been significantly increased (comparison figures proved below), many new locations have been added (borrowed from RHS).




Included in this mod is a separation of Chiang's Central Army units, and common Regional Army units..
The stock model is a 9 Division Corps for all Chinese Corps (Regional Army) The average Chinese Army Corps is based on a 4,000 man Division, which is under-strength of TO&E, at 729 rifle squads by at least 100 rifle squads. In other words over 829 at nominal strength.

Chinese Central Army units are modeled for a 6 Div Corps, (about 84 Div's in all, which matches the historical size of the Central Army) - substantially better trained, equipped, and led (all the officers were Whampoa Military Academy trained), filled out and equipped based close to German trained and equipped standards (though smaller divisions in scale – but at full strength around 5,000 men per Div. They also include a battery of 150mm Mortars (the largest weapon mass-produced in China at the time), and finally some inherent AA capability, as well as recon troops, (one company per Corps), remember – these are Corps Level formations – NOT Divisions.

The final result is a China with a three-tired Army.
At the top is a substantial Chinese Central Army (14 Corps...all units well led, trained and equipped, and very formidable).
Next, stock based run of the mill large(9 Div)corps (all very much under-strength), representing the Regional Army Units of China (a good many are 'static' – see further down).
At the bottom will be a large number of Chinese Warlord units - ALL static (independent of the orders of the KMT central government, and therefore static, holding their own territory)
The quality of Chinese Cavalry has been upgraded in experience and morale (not equipment) after study of combat operations reports by US Army mission in China during the war years.

Last, all this new strength has been balanced by making a significant portion of standard Chinese Army Corps 'static'.

The purpose of this is to recreate the political situation that existed, namely that Chiang Kai-shek's government did not exercise complete direct control over many regional forces in China, only the KMT Central Army was actually under direct control.

In addition, the garrison requirement cost for both sides in Nationalist China has been uniformly increased. For the Chinese it will simulate the unwillingness of the warlords to send their personal troops outside their local provinces and control. And for Japan it will simulate the (currently all but non-existent in Stock) huge guerrilla war they faced. That meant every inch of their controlled Cities and rail lines needed front line troops garrisoning them and patrolling them.
The effect is to make China stronger, yet not able to expel the Japanese single handedly from China...
Yet at the same time, enough Chinese force will be available to defeat the Japanese in China – should the Japanese pull too many units out of theater for deployment outside of China.
This should recreate the stalemate that was China throughout most of the war.






List of Chinese units that are now Static – restricted:
1402 Uanqab -
35th Corps
1128 Yenan -
22nd Corps,
42nd corps,
115th Red Chinese Div,
120th Red Chinese Div,
129th Red Chinese Div
1121 Tsiaotso -
27th Corps,
5th New Chinese Corps
1094 Loyang -
80th Corps,
93rd Corps,
96th Corps
1088 - Chengchow -
15th Corps,
40th Corps
1103 Kweiteh -
51st Corps,
69th Corps
1105 Lanchow -
16th Corps
1109 Nanyang -
41st Corps,
92nd corps
1117 Sian -
57th Corps,
76th Corps
1120 Tienshui -
23rd Corps
1087 Changteh -
44th Corps,
53rd Corps
1116 Shaoyang -
79th Corps
1093 Hengyang -
46th Corps
1086 Changsha -
74th Corps
1115 Pucheng -
70th Corps,
86th Corps
1096 Kanhsien -
25th Corps
1106 Liuchow -
31st Corps
1129 Shangchow -
36th Corps,
47th Corps

TOTAL: 29 Chinese Corps, 3 Red Chinese Divs (+ numerous Warlord units in Southern China, an area not historically obedient to the orders of the central government.)






Chinese Supply:
New Chinese Supply Level is listed below, in comparison to Stock, and RHS [the most detailed treatment of the Chinese economy was done by the RHS Team.
This mod gives a total supply about equal than RHS, but vastly more Daily Supply which cannot simply be bombed out ... the supply locations (cities) must be taken].

Stock: 3308 (total hvy & lt industry + Daily supply)
B-Mod 7200 (total hvy & lt industry + Daily supply)
RHS: 6019 (not counting PLA areas)
__________________________________________________________________________________

CHART 1: CENTRAL ARMY & REGIONAL ARMY STRENGTH 1937





CHART 2: CENTRAL ARMY & REGIONAL ARMY STRENGTH AND QUALITY 1941

A last word about China: The main emphasis of this mod has been to drag this wonderful game into a more historical/realistic simulation of WW2 in Asia/Pacific.






Last Thoughts:


The biggest challenge has proven to be recreating the situation in China. The engine is built on a system of supply that works well enough for the industrial nations of Japan and the Western Allies, but totally fails to represent China.
The point of redefining Chinese supply is a game decision made to still make the industrial powers work in the game, while allowing China to historically perform as she did in WW2. This has been accomplished mainly by giving China a large proportion of Daily Supply to supplement the Japanese and Western styled supply system.
This problem has been acknowledged by the original developers since the first days of the original War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945
– when the developers decided to include China - mainly as a way to train Japanese air units.
Since then, the total war of Japan has taken a life of it's own, leaving China easy meat to be conquered in most competitive PBEM Games....altering any historical semblance to a recognizable simulation of WW2 against Japan.

For this reason – China has been radically altered (though fairly true to real Chinese OOB).

The goal was not to create the Ultimate Detailed treatment of the Chinese military in WW2 - complete with every last squad that carried an unusual sub machine gun...

The goal was to create a reasonably close model of China, that allows China it's historical ability to carry on a war against Japan independent of Western Allied supply assistance (which on balance – was negligible) with an Order Of Battle that is fairly accurate, and does not drift too uncomfortably far from the Stock Game.....and I feel this has finally been successfully achieved.

Hopefully, historical minded players will appreciate the work done to make this happen.
__________________________________________________________________________




_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 3
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/4/2019 9:45:23 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 16822
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
Spoke with Michael today and he is steadily plowing thru the changes. He will detail what has been embraced and why.


_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 4
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/4/2019 11:17:03 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 16822
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
Have been doing the complete install of Brian's Mod and have forgotten just how long doing all that takes. CRAZY! Am very excited to be Mod working again as well as looking forward to a new match.

Was pretty certain my current game was done when Sean wanted down time. His decision led me back into the Mod creation and tweaking which is a ton of fun when you have energy, time, and good ideas. Getting the creative juices flowing again is delightful but has led me to compromise my time with Sean's game as well as shut that AAR down. Just not enough time to go around. This has led to distracted play by me and disappointed readers in my AAR where I am more interested in pulling tomes from the research library, bandying ideas about with Michael, and making notes in my Mod Planning Book. Sorry about that. Something has to give. C'est la vie I guess.

Hearing Michael's ideas and working thoughts has been great. Been a long time since we tackled a serious change or upgrade to the games. Going in the new direction of using Brian's Mod work is exciting and I hope brings a ton of good times for players coming up!

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 12/4/2019 11:31:02 PM >


_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 5
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/5/2019 1:35:35 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 25212
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
This has led to distracted play by me and disappointed readers in my AAR


That's OK, John. We'll pull for Anachro's crushing of your Kido Butai. Looks like he's really doing a great job of it from the looks of the last turn too. Hats off to him!

_____________________________


(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 6
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/5/2019 1:25:15 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 16822
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
Hey Chickenboy.

By product of what I wrote up above. Good job by him. It is why I stopped the AAR. KNEW things were about to get interesting and make it very hard to not spend a bunch of time writing about events, issues, and challenges. Convenient that he re-started his abandoned AAR just as I end mine to work here and on the Mods. You can keep up that way with events.

Think I have Brian's Mod fully installed. Me and computer stuff do not get along so we'll find out fairly quickly if anything was missed.

Michael thinks he will have his work done by the end of the weekend. Once the files come back to me, I shall see just how good of a Master set of files I created and try to break out a new Between the Storms Lite and Heavy. Remember that these Scenarios will be hybrids using DaBabes formatting while importing a lot of Brian's work.

Once we have these Mods re-released, I shall go entirely the Brian's work and recreate a new Treaty Mod, then Wake Island Scenario, then Coral Sea Scenario, and--finally--a Grand Campaign. Gonna take a lot of time but it should be pretty rewarding.

_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 7
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/5/2019 11:51:43 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 16822
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Definitely have my new install completed and it APPEARS to work. Had a wet, blustery training day today so I had just a little bit of time to finish the install.


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Post #: 8
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/7/2019 6:23:27 AM   
ny59giants


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I may have been too optimistic when it came to transferring China info from Big B's mod to this mod. I'm still plugging away, but Brian's is based on stock while BTS, Treaty, and RA are DBB so the slots in the editor don't even closely line up. I have to go line by line which is time consuming.

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Post #: 9
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/7/2019 12:26:38 PM   
John 3rd


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That SUCKS! Will call after work today.


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Post #: 10
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/8/2019 2:48:26 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

A last word about China: The main emphasis of this mod has been to drag this wonderful game into a more historical/realistic simulation of WW2 in Asia/Pacific.


In so far as the objective stated above is concerned the biggest problem from my point of view is the sameness of supply capability. I have some slight experience with the Big B Mod in PBEM (Dec 41-mid Jan 42). I don't remember the specifics precisely but IIRC several IJA Tank Regts overran the Chinese units NE of Yenan and proceeded to race into the poorly defended Chinese rear areas. I don't really have a problem with the IJA overrunning the Chinese since they were initially supported by IJA infantry/artillery. What I do have a problem with is the exploitation of the breakthrough by an army that depends by in large on horse drawn trsnsport. Although infantry and cavalry might survive for a bit living off the land on the edges of the Gobi Desert armored vehicles can not move without gasoline and it's a pretty looong stretch to figure they fueled up from local gas stations.

As far as I can tell NO ADVANTAGE accrues (mostly it seems a disadvantage) to the Western Allies from having a motorized army. Somehow the FACT that Britain shipped more tons of horse fodder than tons of ammunition to France in the First World War seems to be irrelevant in spite of any comparison one can make between China's railroad system and France's. The reason the IJA had a stalemate in its China Incident/War was that they couldn't stray very far from the railroads. After 100 miles or so the horses eat all they can carry and still return to the rail depot.

Not being a programmer I have no idea how one can differentiate support from motorized support that would reflect the latter's superior ability to project supply from the depot but I'm pretty sure that that is the only way to make China the bottomless pit it proved to be for Japan. For the most part it would not effect Japanese expansion into the Malaya/DEI/PI/South Pacific since railroads exist there or the potential advance is only a few miles max from the beach.

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Post #: 11
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/8/2019 3:11:06 PM   
John 3rd


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Thanks Spence. Good comment.


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Post #: 12
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/9/2019 5:39:45 PM   
John 3rd


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Got the install fixed. Cannot believe that it did not occur to me to simply log-in at Matrix and get the info as well as re-download if needed. Appreciate everyone's thoughts there.


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Post #: 13
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/10/2019 4:04:51 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Hey Chickenboy.

By product of what I wrote up above. Good job by him. It is why I stopped the AAR. KNEW things were about to get interesting and make it very hard to not spend a bunch of time writing about events, issues, and challenges. Convenient that he re-started his abandoned AAR just as I end mine to work here and on the Mods. You can keep up that way with events.



Huh? I am so confused by what you write sometimes.

Do I need to translate this? Like ... I stopped because I don't like writing an AAR about the stage in game where Japan begins to lose more than win battles?

Why don't you get it?

EDIT: Just saw your beefed up oil production in this scenario. In the HOME ISLANDS. What a joke. What, they just drilled a bit more before the war and "discovered" some more oil? At every production centre?

< Message edited by obvert -- 12/10/2019 10:05:37 PM >


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Post #: 14
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/10/2019 11:42:12 PM   
ny59giants


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So, should this Mod be based on the economy of stock scenario 1, Erik? Please download this mod or ask me for the latest files and offer me feedback on what you feel should be changed.

Thanks

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Post #: 15
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 12:13:23 AM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Hey Chickenboy.

By product of what I wrote up above. Good job by him. It is why I stopped the AAR. KNEW things were about to get interesting and make it very hard to not spend a bunch of time writing about events, issues, and challenges. Convenient that he re-started his abandoned AAR just as I end mine to work here and on the Mods. You can keep up that way with events.



Huh? I am so confused by what you write sometimes.

Do I need to translate this? Like ... I stopped because I don't like writing an AAR about the stage in game where Japan begins to lose more than win battles?

Why don't you get it?

EDIT: Just saw your beefed up oil production in this scenario. In the HOME ISLANDS. What a joke. What, they just drilled a bit more before the war and "discovered" some more oil? At every production centre?



Pretty interesting tone there Obvert.

There is no confusion to be had here with what I am saying. The problem is what I have withheld because I've wanted to wait. The big, bad Canoerebel (Dan) and I have agreed to play each other again. This long-awaited re-match will have a huge following. My CHOICE is to write that game as an AAR and not Sean. This decision was made the moment Dan accepted the match. It had nothing to do what has happened. I told Sean that yesterday in a long email.

As to your borderline rude comment: I have no knowledge of adding oil in the Home Islands. That is ludicrous. The whole point is the Mod FORCES Japan to be much further behind the eight ball on Dec 7th. Sure...you get expanded HI, some expanded industry, expanded naval air production/research, and two larger naval yards but it is at a huge cost. This has been seen and commented upon by players over the many years of these Mods development. What, specifically, are you talking about?

Have you downloaded the Mod? Have you actually read up on and have a full understanding of the AltHist of the Mod?

If something has happened that Michael and I are unaware of then we need to know and it will be immediately corrected.

I do believe that is the whole point of this thread...

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Post #: 16
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 12:13:59 AM   
Anachro


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I am re-posting this here for John to see. This is a critique of the mod brought forward with good intentions on my part. It comes now as I was only recently made aware of the improved oil/fuel production for Japan from other posters in my AAR.

quote:

It's all well and good to state that HI, etc. is increased to reflect a better-planned war economy/industrial base by the Japanese; likewise, it's also fine to argue that an increased OOB requires greater shipyards (not of course getting into the real life problem of Jaspan's finite availability of space for ports).

However, it's another thing entirely to say for purposes of "balance" that to make these things work you should then significantly expand the native resource production of many areas. That is not possible, or plausible, and indeed goes against the spirit of trying to produce an alternate history to explain the developments in Japan's OOB/industrial capacity in the mod. Essentially, you are coming up with magically increased amounts of oil/resource production to compensate for increased HI/LI, etc. and thereby taking away the "tradeoff" of Japan/Yamamoto's decision to increase the OOB, to increase the industrial capacity, and more. Japan wants more HI? Fine, let it have it. It also wants a larger OOB? Sure, but with these decisions comes the ramifications that there is all the greater need for more resources/fuel transported back to the home islands, and, moreover, a simultaneous greater need for fuel for fleet operations abroad. This is the great tradeoff that should be happening as a result of the alternate history and the decisions made by the IJN/IJA in your mod. Instead, your mod lets Japan have its cake and eat it too, nullifying the justifiable consequences of its action/decisions.

That's my opinion from a theoretical standpoint at least. It's all well and good to of course do that and create an expanded resource base to make your strengthened Japan work. It's a mod, but it transforms the mod into completely fantasy by doing so and that should be stated on the mod page. Don't give us poppycock about the worse fuel/supply situation Japan is supposedly in.

I hope you don't misunderstand me. I like a lot of the work of the mod and find it to be a very fun experience, but the expanded Japanese natural resource production is a bandaid that detracts from the economic/historical factors Japan should be facing as a result of its decision to increase industrial output and its OOB (and therefore the strain on its fuel).




< Message edited by Anachro -- 12/11/2019 12:22:58 AM >

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Post #: 17
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 12:15:12 AM   
Anachro


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John, there is increased production for Japan:

BTS


DBB-C

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Post #: 18
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 12:16:59 AM   
Anachro


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Now, this could all be some confusion on my part. I am no expert in the Japanese economy, so perhaps I'm just misreading things. Look at different in max oil prod in BTS vs Scen , actual production too.


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Post #: 19
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 12:25:16 AM   
John 3rd


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Like to have seen that before I just Posted what I did but it still stands. Now I have a little context after Michael called me to get on the Forum.

There should be no extra Oil Centers in the Home Islands. What improved fuel production?

In Sean and I's game I have increased my Refineries in Japan by PAYING for it.

Where are the expanded resources? Not anything I have tinkered with. We've worked some HI/LI stuff around but only in minor ways/locations.

Michael and I work on this as a team and always welcome good, thoughtful comments and observations. We have made mistakes from time-to-time and always go back thru and correct them once found. Need some specifics so we can address them in a logical, rational manner.

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Post #: 20
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 12:28:38 AM   
Anachro


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I am very happy to help with the mod, I bring my thoughts out a wish to improve it! One other critique from me: the mod website can be a bit unclear on the differences between RA, BTS, and BTS Lite. Hope that gets clarified in the future (maybe with simple bullet points of differences for each submod in addition to the alternate history in prose form).

I should note the above images come from BTS, DBB-C, and Scen 1 on Dec 7, 1941. Thus, no chance to change things like increasing refinery capacity, etc. BTS is using BTS 5.7

< Message edited by Anachro -- 12/11/2019 12:30:39 AM >

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Post #: 21
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 12:34:04 AM   
John 3rd


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Anshan's change is the only one I know is purposeful. Stanislav thought that the Japanese could have made a greater effort there when we first created the original Mod. Obviously it will cost 150,000 supply to complete but that one is one left in the nix from square one.

As to the others...that is perplexing. I've never played with the Home Islands when it came to oil/refineries. As said before that would be ludicrous.

Wonder if this has been here all along? Remember the RA Mod started with 4-5 of us working on it and others then jumped in over the years to help in the evolution of all the Mods. Juan helped with the Off-Map Allied Aircraft Purchase System. Stanislav was there for the early development. We had help from Red Lancer, Adm Dadman, and several others. Now we are bringing in stuff from Big B's work. For the last 3-4 years it has all been on Michael and I.

This is easy to address and fix. Have no issue with that. There is little-to-no ego here when it comes to honest issues and problems.

Nice work Sean!

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 12/12/2019 3:42:22 AM >


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Post #: 22
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 12:35:34 AM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

I am very happy to help with the mod, I bring my thoughts out a wish to improve it! One other critique from me: the mod website can be a bit unclear on the differences between RA, BTS, and BTS Lite. Hope that gets clarified in the future (maybe with simple bullet points of differences for each submod in addition to the alternate history in prose form).

I should note the above images come from BTS, DBB-C, and Scen 1 on Dec 7, 1941. Thus, no chance to change things like increasing refinery capacity, etc. BTS is using BTS 5.7


We are a DaBabes-based scenario. That was our starting point.

The confusion within the Mod descriptions is natural and that is what Michael and I have been trying to fix with the creation of the 'Master' BTS Mod File. Once it is complete, creating the BTS-L and BTS-H will be far easier to develop and, more importantly, explain.

You would be most welcome Sean! AS you know, I have asked many times for feedback. We talk more on that!

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 12/11/2019 12:37:37 AM >


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Post #: 23
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 12:36:48 AM   
Anachro


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Hopefully ITAKLinus can share his thoughts on it here. He seems to have a good technical background and has done extensive technical analysis with someone else in the Italian WitP community who is playing the BTS mod atm.

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Post #: 24
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 12:39:37 AM   
John 3rd


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Have to go and do inventory at the store. Will jump back on in a few hours.


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Post #: 25
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 5:14:51 AM   
John 3rd


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Back from Inventory and have been thinking about this discussion.

When Michael sends back the files from his China work, I will go back thru and make sure numbers are correct with what has been shown above. That is simple and quick to fix. Have extended the invite to Sean to get a bit more involved. A fresh set of eyes is ALWAYS a good thing!

Will keep Posting as we work thru everything.


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 12/12/2019 3:43:05 AM >


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Post #: 26
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 10:26:07 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Hey Chickenboy.

By product of what I wrote up above. Good job by him. It is why I stopped the AAR. KNEW things were about to get interesting and make it very hard to not spend a bunch of time writing about events, issues, and challenges. Convenient that he re-started his abandoned AAR just as I end mine to work here and on the Mods. You can keep up that way with events.



Huh? I am so confused by what you write sometimes.

Do I need to translate this? Like ... I stopped because I don't like writing an AAR about the stage in game where Japan begins to lose more than win battles?

Why don't you get it?

EDIT: Just saw your beefed up oil production in this scenario. In the HOME ISLANDS. What a joke. What, they just drilled a bit more before the war and "discovered" some more oil? At every production centre?



Pretty interesting tone there Obvert.



I'm fine with riling you up a little. Got the discussion going anyway! The green button is available should you need it.

quote:



There is no confusion to be had here with what I am saying. The problem is what I have withheld because I've wanted to wait. The big, bad Canoerebel (Dan) and I have agreed to play each other again. This long-awaited re-match will have a huge following. My CHOICE is to write that game as an AAR and not Sean. This decision was made the moment Dan accepted the match. It had nothing to do what has happened. I told Sean that yesterday in a long email.



It's your timing that raises eyebrows. You have a way of deflecting to the narrative you'd like to put forward without addressing critiques.

quote:



As to your borderline rude comment: I have no knowledge of adding oil in the Home Islands. That is ludicrous. The whole point is the Mod FORCES Japan to be much further behind the eight ball on Dec 7th. Sure...you get expanded HI, some expanded industry, expanded naval air production/research, and two larger naval yards but it is at a huge cost. This has been seen and commented upon by players over the many years of these Mods development. What, specifically, are you talking about?

Have you downloaded the Mod? Have you actually read up on and have a full understanding of the AltHist of the Mod?



I have the mod. I have the numbers. But I didn't make the comparison as you can now see above. I noticed some odd changes to oil/resources in the SRA long ago, but didn't pursue it because I really don't care what you do with this mod to make playing Japan your wildest dream of playtoys.

The ALT history is just that.

I just care how you represent it to others who spend years engaging in games using it. If they haven't looked at the Japanese side, because they're playing Allies and may not be even familiar with what stock/DBB look like, or the affect of different levels of oil in each, then they won't know what the economy can do. You and the team go into minute detail about ship design, airframe RnD and the plethora of CD gun units you've added, but nothing about the economy. Those kinds of omissions make me more than a little suspicious.

I don't think I'm alone in that.

quote:


If something has happened that Michael and I are unaware of then we need to know and it will be immediately corrected.

I do believe that is the whole point of this thread...


Why not just leave the oil/resources and factory numbers of the economy exactly as they are in DBB or stock? Why these changes?

In the shot Anachro posted I noticed an increase in the Home Islands of 84 oil centers. I know there was an even bigger increase in the resource centres. So essentially between the changes in Formosa, Manchuria and the home Islands you have the equivalent of Tarakan and Balikpapan without having to either conquer them or transport the stuff back. Pretty convenient.

And none of you who work on the mod know about that? Hmmm.

< Message edited by obvert -- 12/11/2019 10:30:21 AM >


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Post #: 27
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 11:07:30 AM   
ITAKLinus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Hopefully ITAKLinus can share his thoughts on it here. He seems to have a good technical background and has done extensive technical analysis with someone else in the Italian WitP community who is playing the BTS mod atm.





Read it now, haven't seen I got named.


Sadly, I'm stuck again in the jungle. I should be able to reach home and provide the data in the evening.


Please, as I wrote you there, feel free to report whatever post I made yesterday evening in your AAR since my comments would be basically the same.





To make a brief introduction to my thought:
Stating that "Supply and fuel reserves start at a much reduced state. The Japanese MUST take the DEI as fast as possible!" is a plain lie, brutally deceiving those who approach the Allied side, and the MOD as a whole, in bona fide.

And many statements regarding Japanese economy are, at least, dubious. Such as the fact that increased NavShipyards pose a heavy burden on the economy. There are something more than 1,700NavShipyards in the images posted above. I currently run a Scen1 PBEM with 1,700NavShipyards and I bank 5.000HI per-turn.

At this point I'd like to see ship statistics to know their production rate. I am totally uninterested in their AA weapons or stuff like that: I wanna know the possibility of those ships to be produced easily, since with your same NavShipyards I can barely accelerate CVs (bar Shinano, stopped) and have DDs in "normal". Nothing more. No Yamatos. No CLs. Few, selected subs.
I am probably wrong, but I start thinking that also the whole shipbuilding system is messed up.

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Post #: 28
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 11:29:35 AM   
ITAKLinus

 

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Also, here nobody is discussing "we like the MOD or not". The discussion here is how Japanese economy is made and how it is represented in the MOD website.


I was quite surprised when I started looking at the website for the afromentioned Italian guy, since it was extremely specific on many alternative history things, but little to nothing was precisely said about the economy.
So I started comparing industrial screens from the guy to mine in my Scen1 games. It has been quite a big surprise.





I refuse to believe that any remotely competent Japanese player doesn't realise he has additional production of key factors such as OIL. I mean, I would somehow believe nobody checks resources since Japan usually swims in them. But OIL. C'mon. I'm probably a very bad player but I check carefully key elements such as FUEL/OIL/SUPPLIES and relative production sites.

Moreover, whenever there are increased production/stuff, every remotely competent Japanese player checks everything "not to screw up the economy". Brutally overproducing and keeping high operational tempo it's dancing on a razor blade, even for those who are very confident about what they are doing.



One of the two: either you are the most incompetent Japanese player who has ever been in the forum, and I don't believe so, or saying that you haven't noticed the massive increase in oil production for over 600 turns is, at least, dubious.


< Message edited by ITAKLinus -- 12/11/2019 11:30:11 AM >


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Post #: 29
RE: New Between the Storms Direction - 12/11/2019 4:35:40 PM   
BillBrown


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I would like to put in a word or two in support of John.

1. John has been playing only one or the other of his mods for a very long time. He really does not
have a point of reference to "know" that his mod is out of wack. The early versions of his mods
were done by a group of people and he did not always know exactly what was changed.

2. I think fatr made many of the early aircraft and economy modifications. I am not sure which ones John
actually knew about. He has stated that Anshan was increased by fatr very early in the mod cycle. So I would
say that others that played Japan that were experienced Japanese players should have made a comment
at some time.

3. I stated this elsewhere but I need to put it here. I have played as Allies in this mod and find it fun
and entertaining. I really am not worried about Japan having more goodies, the Allies get enough to have
a lot of fun.

4. One item that I do not think is right is the Jack and George being CV capable with such good stats. Generally
if an aircraft goes from a land only aircraft to a CV capable it gains weight and loses speed and maneuverability.
It is something to look at.

< Message edited by BillBrown -- 12/11/2019 4:39:58 PM >

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Post #: 30
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