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'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/2/2019 3:35:37 PM   
Kulturhund

 

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Hi

Getting back into the game after a long hiatus... this is vs the AI (AndyMac's scenario 17 'revenge of the Dorniers') the first rendition not the 'nasty' ones that came later. I have a bunch of carriers supporting my Java invasion Feb 1942 at 50% CAP but there was one attack - the critical one - where I got the message 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' in the combat report. No fighter cover at all, and that happened to be the attack with 12 Swordfish lol.

Don't recall seeing this message before - is this specific to scenario 17? I'm on version 1.8.11.26a.
thanks in advance.
Post #: 1
RE: 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/2/2019 3:49:47 PM   
btd64


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I've seen this message before. Although not in the last few years. In different scenarios....GP


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RE: 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/2/2019 4:09:50 PM   
Lokasenna


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This message means that:

1) Carriers are nearby the hex that is being attacked, AND
2) Those carriers have fighters on them that are set to CAP or LRCAP, with a range setting that would allow them to reach the hex under attack, BUT
3) They are unable to provide CAP/LRCAP to the hex for one reason or another - usually because they are tied up with another attack in another hex

At least, I am 90% sure that's what it means. I have also had it show up when I was 90% sure that my fighter unit settings were such that the hex under attack was out of range (e.g., 1 hex away and all my CAP is set to range 0). But I'm pretty sure it most often occurs, if not always occurs, when the 3 things I listed above are happening.

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 3
RE: 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/2/2019 8:26:43 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

This message means that:

1) Carriers are nearby the hex that is being attacked, AND
2) Those carriers have fighters on them that are set to CAP or LRCAP, with a range setting that would allow them to reach the hex under attack, BUT
3) They are unable to provide CAP/LRCAP to the hex for one reason or another - usually because they are tied up with another attack in another hex

At least, I am 90% sure that's what it means. I have also had it show up when I was 90% sure that my fighter unit settings were such that the hex under attack was out of range (e.g., 1 hex away and all my CAP is set to range 0). But I'm pretty sure it most often occurs, if not always occurs, when the 3 things I listed above are happening.


Or maybe previous engagements used up all the ops of the 50% CAP and there were none in the air to do defence at the time of the attack? (this differs from your point 3 in that there does not have to be another attack going on at the same moment, just a lack of available aircraft from refueling/rearming operations).

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RE: 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/2/2019 8:38:36 PM   
Dili

 

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Sometimes occurs also when carriers are operating in coastal hexes.

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RE: 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/3/2019 12:59:27 AM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

This message means that:

1) Carriers are nearby the hex that is being attacked, AND
2) Those carriers have fighters on them that are set to CAP or LRCAP, with a range setting that would allow them to reach the hex under attack, BUT
3) They are unable to provide CAP/LRCAP to the hex for one reason or another - usually because they are tied up with another attack in another hex

At least, I am 90% sure that's what it means. I have also had it show up when I was 90% sure that my fighter unit settings were such that the hex under attack was out of range (e.g., 1 hex away and all my CAP is set to range 0). But I'm pretty sure it most often occurs, if not always occurs, when the 3 things I listed above are happening.


Or maybe previous engagements used up all the ops of the 50% CAP and there were none in the air to do defence at the time of the attack? (this differs from your point 3 in that there does not have to be another attack going on at the same moment, just a lack of available aircraft from refueling/rearming operations).


Not differs - is just really a subsection of the same reason ;)

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 6
RE: 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/3/2019 1:00:23 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Sometimes occurs also when carriers are operating in coastal hexes.


Should have no impact directly, but I suppose there could be an indirect impact in base hexes (not coastal) if there are 50% fewer planes on CAP - they would exhaust themselves more rapidly, all else equal.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 7
RE: 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/3/2019 1:41:44 PM   
Trugrit


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From: North Carolina
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It would be useful to have more information.

There are a couple of threads on this.
This one is the most useful because Numdydar gives more detail:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3605776

Not much to this one:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3233605

As far as I know these are the things that could be a factor.

The following are checks for each individual air group:
Low air group morale can ground or abort:
Morale below 50% not good (chance) Below 30% much greater chance may abort or refuse to fly.

High unit/Pilot Fatigue:
Longer range missions, number of consecutive mission without rest..

Missed Air Group Leadership Check:
Air group leader influence.

Failure to find the target.

The following may shut down all air groups:
Advanced Weather:
Weather can shut down air operations in the hex where the groups are launched
from or in the hex they are going in to.

The Carrier Air Task Force Leader’s air skill rating:
The TF Commander functions as an Air HQ for the air groups embarked.
This will influence how many strike aircraft will fly.

Damaged carrier, overloaded carrier....etc.

From the Manual:

7.2.1.4 MORALE AND AIR MISSIONS
Air groups will now fly regardless of Morale; however, Airborne aborts particularly under duress from enemy attacks,
failure to coordinate, or weather will be more likely as Morale decreases. The lower the Morale, the greater the
chance the group will fail the test and not fly effectively that particular Air Phase. Also, air units flying a
Naval Search, ASW Patrol, or CAP Mission must pass the Morale Tests in order to fly all available
planes on the Mission.


7.4.1 COMBAT AIR PATROL (CAP)
CAP may react to defend a target as far as 2 hexes away. To do so, the hex to be defended must be attacked
by more aircraft then are defending the hex, and the hex the CAP is going to come from must be under attack
by less aircraft than are currently flying CAP over that hex (checked for each air unit, one at a time).

The CAP that is going to fly out of their hex must have an extended range that would reach the hex to be
defended (but no more than 2 hexes away). Also, in order for this extra coverage to happen, the attack must
be detected by radar in time to allow for the CAP to reach the target (an intercept is allowed 33% of the time
even when there is no radar). The exact number of aircraft that will cover outside their hex is dependent
on how good the radar detection is on the incoming strike.

I’m always mindful of the two hex rule so I snuggle in close when I provide air cover
(one hex off max) and I never set a carrier air group to long range cap.

This is a useful thread on carrier long range cap:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2729578

18.1.2 ADVANCED WEATHER EFFECTS
If set to On, there will be a different weather forecast every Day: Clear, Partly Cloudy, Overcast, Rain, or
Thunderstorms. The worse the weather that Day, the greater the likelihood of an air Mission missing the target,
or even of being grounded before takeoff. If this option is off, the weather forecast will always be Partly Cloudy.

That is the order of weather, good to bad: Clear, Partly Cloudy, Overcast, Rain, or Thunderstorms.
The worse it gets the greater the chance of grounding.

7.2.1.7.2 FAILURE TO FIND THE TARGET
Aircraft can fail to find their Targets due to bad weather en route to or over their target, or due to the
inability of the planes to locate their Target before they are forced to return to base due to fuel constraints.

For multiple carriers, this is a useful thread, especially post #3, but it also touches on a number of topics:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4252031

I have found you can't go very wrong following Lokasenna's advice.



(in reply to Kulturhund)
Post #: 8
RE: 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/3/2019 6:32:59 PM   
Kulturhund

 

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thanks for replies/feedback. I was on 50% CAP (no LRCAP), and pretty sure I wasn't in a base or coastal hex. That was like the 2nd attack or so... on the other hand, I have seen CAP fly even facing multiple attacks/turn.

(in reply to Trugrit)
Post #: 9
RE: 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/4/2019 2:36:21 AM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kulturhund

thanks for replies/feedback. I was on 50% CAP (no LRCAP), and pretty sure I wasn't in a base or coastal hex. That was like the 2nd attack or so... on the other hand, I have seen CAP fly even facing multiple attacks/turn.



But what were the range settings and did they cover the targeted hex?

Keep in mind that it could be a result of just one group being unable.

(in reply to Kulturhund)
Post #: 10
RE: 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/11/2019 7:54:16 AM   
Alfred

 

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The exact circumstance for this message appearing is that outlined by wdolson in his 9 May 2014 post found in the first linked thread provided in Truegrit's post above.  In short it simply means that there was no friendly carrier CAP in the air at that moment which had there been, would have met the enemy strike.

Alfred

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 11
RE: 'Carrier support unable to supply air cover' - 12/11/2019 3:18:52 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9136
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The exact circumstance for this message appearing is that outlined by wdolson in his 9 May 2014 post found in the first linked thread provided in Truegrit's post above.  In short it simply means that there was no friendly carrier CAP in the air at that moment which had there been, would have met the enemy strike.

Alfred


Exactly:


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The message goes into the report if there was a carrier in range, but there happened to be no CAP airborne at the moment of attack. Airborne CAP might get exhausted with a previous wave and the carrier hadn't launched new CAP to replace them yet. I would guess it might also happen if the fighter squadron was not set to CAP or the CAP percentage was very low.

Bill


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 12
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