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[FIXED B1121.3] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is NOT FIXED

 
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[FIXED B1121.3] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is... - 11/28/2019 2:17:32 PM   
DWReese

 

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FIXED: Airgroup wingmen not always following's lead's desired altitude NOT TRUE

This was reportedly fixed with this build. I have conducted five separate tests with this, and it appears to act exactly as it did with the other builds, it is still broken.

Two F-16CM (Block 42)are each armed with two Mk84 2000lb bombs. They are tasked with destroying four buildings, one bomb per building. (The actual bombing/destruction aspect works fine.)

During the waypoint BEFORE the IP, one a/c approaches at 200 feet AGL, and the other drops to 100 feet. (I don't know if you intended on that happening.)

At the IP waypoint, each rises up to 1500 and conducts the attack as usual. Good job.

Immediately AFTER the attack, the LEAD drops down to 480 kts and 200 feet AGL. His wingman, however, remains at 580 kts and 1500 feet. Both depart the area.

Although still GROUPED together, 62 miles later as they turn for home, the two planes rise up to 36000 feet, which is normal. But, one F-16 (the wingman) is 11 miles in front of the lead, and (as expected) has 300 kg LESS fuel than the LEAD because he has been traveling faster.

Additionally, the LEAD is listed as using 46.6 kg of fuel per minute, but traveling slower at 480 kts, while the other is now listed as traveling at 560 kts but only using 38.3 kg. So, the slower aircraft is using more fuel than his wingman, despite the fact that they should be the same weight (ordinance) and are flying at the same altitude.

I have provided numerous copies of this scenario, so you should have it. If not, I will do it again. But, this is the same issue that I have repeatedly reported. Nothing has changed. As I mentioned before, all it takes is a mere glance at the fuel bars in the GROUP MODE to know that something is wrong.

EDIT 1: On the in-bound leg, when the planes are supposed to be at 200 feet AGL and the one is actually at 100 feet, the altitude numbers bounce all around, and occasionally it shows as being at 0 (ZERO) feet AGL. Perhaps that helps some.

EDIT 2: IMPORTANT....I've mentioned this before but...If you LAUNCH the planes on a mission in as SINGLE UNITS (not as a group), then everything works perfectly. So, this is obviously a grouping issue.

EDIT 3: Additional testing seems to reveal that GROUPS of planes utilizing MISSILES for their attacks seem to function better, while those using bombs are the worst. The speeds seem to still be different for some, but the altitude for the missile launching aircraft seem to be close to the same.


< Message edited by Dimitris -- 12/13/2019 10:15:18 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Wingman's speed and altitude problem is NOT FIXED - 11/28/2019 6:32:56 PM   
mavfin

 

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While I agree it does need further work, and there is some grouping issues...they're not of the magnitude of the one you're mentioning as 'fixed'. That one was fixed...

The fix you're talking about was for *this*, which is something else entirely, and not just on the outbound side. Yes, that's supposed to be a group, but it's at four different altitudes on the inbound side.

Well, maybe this is just a higher magnitude of it, but, I call what we have here in .8.1 as 'playable, though it needs work'...what was in the pic was not playable, imo.







i.e. the grouping issue with the fuel, etc, that you're talking about, was not said to be fixed, despite the description, and has been logged and is being looked at.


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< Message edited by mavfin -- 11/28/2019 6:38:48 PM >

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Wingman's speed and altitude problem is NOT FIXED - 11/28/2019 7:35:51 PM   
DWReese

 

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Happy Thanksgiving!

This has to be a grouping thing. As I said, if I send the planes out in the same mission, but I send them individually as single planes, then they fly as single units and they work perfectly. So, something about grouping is causing this.

Yes, you can play the game and no, I'm not intending on sounding like the prophet of doom, but you wonder how it can be so different when it worked so well in CMANO. Grouping just doesn't work so well in CMO at this time.

A group's speed, altitude, and fuel are extremely important to mission playing and scenario design.

(in reply to mavfin)
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RE: Wingman's speed and altitude problem is NOT FIXED - 11/29/2019 1:11:11 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

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Existing ticket updated.

If you're discussing an existing issue can you please add a reply to the original thread. Opening new threads just makes it harder for us to track issues and collate all the information.

_____________________________


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RE: Wingman's speed and altitude problem is NOT FIXED - 11/29/2019 1:34:29 AM   
DWReese

 

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quote:

FIXED: Airgroup wingmen not always following's lead's desired altitude


Rory,

The above quote came directly from the message that Daniele put out announcing the new and revised update. In reading it, I believe that a reasonable person would conclude, based on the very first word [FIXED], that the problem has been resolved. So, I'm sure that you would agree, anything added to an "already-resolved issue" likely wouldn't attract any attention at all from the devs since they believe that the problem is already "FIXED."

Hence, if any of the devs (of which you are one) believe that the old issue is already resolved because it says "FIXED", then I believed that it was prudent to begin a new ticket so that the appropriate action can be taken.

I apologize if my actions somehow caused a major inconvenience for anyone, but they did seem logical to me based on the situation.


(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 5
RE: [Duplicate] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is... - 12/1/2019 1:19:46 PM   
daveoreno


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From: Toronto, Canada
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Hi guys,
I can confirm that this issue is not resolved in 1115.8.1 (Steam Install) Please observe wingmen in mission S_2 flying at 100ft asl.
when the mission window is set to 10,000ft.

(not allowed to upload save yet. but I can provide.)

Dave

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 6
RE: [Duplicate] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is... - 12/10/2019 2:54:02 AM   
DWReese

 

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Joined: 3/21/2014
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I have installed the latest patch and this issue still isn't fixed.

As described before, on the approach to the bombing run both planes in the group are listed at 200 feet. In reality, the main plane is at 200 feet, and the wingman is at 100 feet.

During the bombing aspect, both climb to 1500 and conduct the bombing raid.

After the bombing attack, the main plane leaves the area at 200 feet (as expected), but the wingman rises to (or, actually he remains at) 1500 feet. So, one is at 200 feet and the other is at 1500 feet.

The issue is NOT RESOLVED.

I didn't want to make a new ticket because I didn't figure that you wanted at duplicate, even though it was allegedly fixed, but in reality it was not.

Note: As before, if you send the planes out as SINGLE planes, rather than in a group, it works fine.

(in reply to daveoreno)
Post #: 7
RE: [Duplicate] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is... - 12/10/2019 9:27:28 AM   
Dimitris


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Joined: 7/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
I have installed the latest patch and this issue still isn't fixed.

As described before, on the approach to the bombing run both planes in the group are listed at 200 feet. In reality, the main plane is at 200 feet, and the wingman is at 100 feet.

During the bombing aspect, both climb to 1500 and conduct the bombing raid.

After the bombing attack, the main plane leaves the area at 200 feet (as expected), but the wingman rises to (or, actually he remains at) 1500 feet. So, one is at 200 feet and the other is at 1500 feet.

The issue is NOT RESOLVED.

I didn't want to make a new ticket because I didn't figure that you wanted at duplicate, even though it was allegedly fixed, but in reality it was not.

Note: As before, if you send the planes out as SINGLE planes, rather than in a group, it works fine.


Are you describing the situation in this save? : http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4719396

Because I just tested this, using B1121.1, and the two aircraft appear to be flying at the same speed and altitude, and burning fuel at the same rate.

If what you are describing is happening in another situation then we need a separate save for it.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 12/10/2019 9:28:11 AM >


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RE: [Duplicate] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is... - 12/10/2019 9:32:54 AM   
Dimitris


Posts: 12584
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: daveoreno
Hi guys,
I can confirm that this issue is not resolved in 1115.8.1 (Steam Install) Please observe wingmen in mission S_2 flying at 100ft asl.
when the mission window is set to 10,000ft.

(not allowed to upload save yet. but I can provide.)

Dave


Hi Dave, can you please PM me with the save? Thanks!

_____________________________


(in reply to daveoreno)
Post #: 9
RE: [Duplicate] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is... - 12/10/2019 10:44:40 AM   
DWReese

 

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Joined: 3/21/2014
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quote:

Are you describing the situation in this save? : http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4719396


Yes, this is the same thing. I order to see it, you have to go to UNIT VIEW and look at the planes individually.

The split begins in the segment BEFORE the IP. As they turn and head toward the target the group drops to 200, and that's what shows up. But, individually, one plane is at 200, and the other at 100.

Right before the attack, both go to 1500 feet to conduct the attack. This works perfectly as single unit and as a group.

After the attack, when the planes are headed home in that first leg, the first plane drops to 200 feet, but the wingman stays at 1500 feet. Again, the GROUP VIEW will give you the impression that both are traveling at the same altitude, but that isn't the case. Interestingly, even though the altitude is different, individually they are both show expending fuel at 92 kg per minute.

When the planes reach the first waypoint after the attack, both then go to 36000 feet (as expected) and head home, as expected at the same altitude. If you go back to the group mode you will see that one plane has expended more fuel than the other.

In the scenario, Striker 123 and #2 are both strikes involving two planes and the same thing happens in each case.

If you need the scenario once again, at what point would you like it? This is merely a test scenario.

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 10
RE: [Duplicate] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is... - 12/10/2019 6:51:44 PM   
Dimitris


Posts: 12584
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: online
Fixed for the next update.

_____________________________


(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 11
RE: [Duplicate] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is... - 12/10/2019 7:27:06 PM   
daveoreno


Posts: 64
Joined: 8/27/2016
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
looks like I'm too late but I have PM'ed you the save.

Dave

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 12
RE: [Duplicate] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is... - 12/11/2019 12:25:14 PM   
DWReese

 

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Joined: 3/21/2014
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FIXED: Airgroup wingmen not always following's lead's desired altitude NOT TRUE

I am using the latest version that was released today.

This problem still isn't completely fixed. The back portion, after the attack, does seem to be fixed.

But, the portion of the attack run from the Waypoint BEFORE the IP waypoint, (when the two planes should be traveling at 200 feet), still has the wingman at 100 feet. This occurs over water. When they reach the IP everything works fine from then on. It's just this leg when they are different.

The Group view indicates 200 feet, but individually, Warhorse #4 is at 200 feet, and Warhouse #5 is at 100 feet.

Note: Again, if I were to send the planes out as SINGLE planes, then it works perfectly. It is only when grouped together does a problem occur.




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< Message edited by DWReese -- 12/11/2019 12:34:24 PM >

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RE: [Duplicate] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is... - 12/19/2019 1:49:19 AM   
DWReese

 

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Dimitris,

The speed and altitude issue appears to be completely resolved.

There was an issue that I reported earlier using this same scenario pertaining to fuel and STRIKER 123 (Warhorse #4 and Warhorse #5.). One of the two planes would use more fuel (something like 44.1 kg per minutes compared to 29.2) on the leg home.

Now, after refueling, both planes should have the same fuel as they refueled together. Both appear to be traveling at the same speed,and altitude. Both look identical in every way except, the remaining fuel seems to drop faster in one plane, even though everything shows as being the same. the base is roughly 275 moles away from the refueling plane, and by the time that both aircraft are ready to land, one of the two has about 500 kg LESS than the other. One has 3278 kg remaining, while the other has 2706 kg left. That's a pretty big difference. In fact, it mirrors the earlier problem that I reported.

So, while the speed, altitude, and fuel all seem to be working perfectly, the fuel bar (and the amount) is much less than the other, for no apparent reason. Obviously, that's a big difference. I do believe that this could still be partially broken.

Note: Apparently, Warhorse #2 and #3 also experience the same thing. They were on a bomb attack.

Note 2: Panther #1 and #2, meanwhile, were on a ASM attack mission, and theirs worked perfectly, as did Redcock #1 and #2 which were on ESCORT Missions. So, it appears to be a problem only assigned to the LGB bombers, and no one else.



< Message edited by DWReese -- 12/19/2019 2:08:02 AM >

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: [Duplicate] Wingman's speed and altitude problem is... - 1/1/2020 3:39:53 PM   
DWReese

 

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Dimitris,

I am using the latest upgrade, 1121.3.

I hate to say this, but this problem still isn't fixed. As you can see Bull #3 and #4 are flying together in a group, returning home from a bombing run. Bull #3 is at 36K feet, while Bull #4 is at 200 ft. This is the same problem as before. Bull #3 has about 1000 kg more fuel than does Bull #4.

Note: The planes often will work normally as they should. The problem appears to occur whenever the individual planes within the group get split up. In this case, one had finished its bombing attack and was headed home, while the other still needed to circle back and drop two more bombs. Since they were now split, the two planes never seemed to regroup to the same altitude. When the first one reaches the waypoint, directing it to rise to 36k ft, the other is still flying at 200 ft. HERE'S THE PROBLEM: When the second one finally reaches that same waypoint, the other one is already at 36k ft, so the program doesn't do anything to make the second climb up to his wingman's altitude.

Again, this only happens in groups. If I elect to send the planes out as SINGLE PLANES, the everything works as it should.

I hope that this helps.

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< Message edited by DWReese -- 1/1/2020 7:23:21 PM >

(in reply to Dimitris)
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