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[FIXED B1121.1] Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground Attack Profiles

 
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[FIXED B1121.1] Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Groun... - 11/18/2019 8:36:21 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1767
Joined: 3/21/2014
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Here is a very simple bombing scenario. It involves a two-plane group attacking four defenseless buildings using Mk84 LDGP bombs.

After the planes take off, you will notice that one plane has less fuel than the other. Both took off at the same time. By clicking on each, you will see that one plane is using approximately 30 more kg per minute than the other plane. Why? I have no clue. If you follow this around after the attack, then you will see that after the planes return to their normal 480 kts, that one plane again begins using fuel at a higher rate. In essence, at 480 kts, the planes are at two different fuel consumption rates. At 520 kts, they are spending the same. As with the other scenario before, one plane will end up with much less fuel than the other.

EDIT 1: Repeating the same exercise, but splitting the two planes (each flying solo, not combined in a group), each of the planes expends the same amount of fuel at the expected rate. So, the grouping, for some unknown reason, causes this.

As a second note, the planes fire these bombs from 36000 feet. In previous tests, the planes are much more accurate from lower altitudes than from 36000 feet. I don't know if this is by your design or not, but I would think that they should be lower. In continuing the scenario from where you are now, my planes were only able to hit two of the four buildings. That seems low to me.

EDIT 2: CMANO previously handled this situation by flying at 36000 ft; dropping down to 200 ft just before the attack run; popping up to 1500 ft and activating the laser and firing. Using all four targets were easily destroyed. I believe that 36000 is too high for the laser-guided bombs, so the flight profile has been changed from what used to work real well.



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< Message edited by Dimitris -- 12/10/2019 9:22:53 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground Attack Pro... - 11/19/2019 1:40:59 AM   
mavfin

 

Posts: 274
Joined: 6/22/2010
Status: offline
I'll agree. This last build has fixed a lot of things, but...

I had pairs of A-7s or A-6s where in Tacview, it showed one on the deck, and the other at 36000 feet for most of the run from launch. Same issue with the iton bomb run.

STill a couple of wonky things yet, but it's getting better. I haven't really messed with F2 on the strike missions yet. I may run again and see how much control I have with that. Would be hopeful if they could get away from the 36000 ft bomb drops, unless you're B-52 carpet bombing...

EDIT: Of course, I still don't understand that I can pick ingress/attack altitude in a SEAD or ASuW patrol mission...but a strike mission I don't get that choice?


< Message edited by mavfin -- 11/19/2019 1:45:49 AM >

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 2
RE: Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground Attack Pro... - 11/19/2019 1:50:23 AM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1767
Joined: 3/21/2014
Status: offline
I have been trying to concentrate on Mission control of every battle. If the computer can handle it using missions, and it is realistic, then the human player should be able to do it as well.

As you said, there were huge improvements today. But, some of the flight profiles/parameters could be cleaned up. These are just a few examples.

I often run the same scenario on CMANO and compare the results to those attained in CMO to see what, if anything, is different. It has been helpful, but very time consuming.

Making progress.

(in reply to mavfin)
Post #: 3
RE: Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground Attack Pro... - 11/21/2019 5:50:08 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13181
Joined: 7/31/2005
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All, please have a look here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4720590

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RE: Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground Attack Pro... - 11/21/2019 12:41:53 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1767
Joined: 3/21/2014
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Dimitris,

We are close to fixing the fuel consumption thing, but there are still two issues to look at.

When FlightDisco43 (top left of the screen) originally took off, one of the two planes expends more fuel than the other. It's very noticeable and apparent looking at the two fuel bars. Eventually, however, they get in sync, but one still shows a deficit.

Then, after the bombing run, the flight is heading for the tanker. (This is the point where I am displaying in the save.) One plane again is flying faster than the other. It is traveling at 520 kts (but is listed as LOITER), while the other is traveling at 480, but is listed as CRUISE. The speeds are reversed from what you would expect. It probably has something to do with the fact that the original fuel levels were off just after takeoff. So again, one is using more fuel than the other.

Finally, if you originally send out the planes as single units, it seems to work perfectly, so the grouping seems to be "the thing" that is still a little off.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by DWReese -- 11/21/2019 3:18:08 PM >

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 5
RE: Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground Attack Pro... - 11/22/2019 11:19:24 AM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1767
Joined: 3/21/2014
Status: offline
The latest update 1115.8 DID NOT fix this.

< Message edited by DWReese -- 11/22/2019 7:48:50 PM >

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 6
RE: Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground Attack Pro... - 11/23/2019 5:39:22 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13181
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
Logged, we'll investigate this separately.

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RE: Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground Attack Pro... - 11/27/2019 11:34:45 PM   
Cookie_Booker

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 11/27/2019
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I discovered both of these bugs on the day of release and have posted it to Discord several times (as have other people), but it continues unresolved.

1. Wingmen in a flight will chase, but almost never reach, their (new in CMO) formation station. Because they are chasing, their speed (and fuel consumption) are higher than the lead aircraft. You can see this by "Tracking" the flight and entering the F4 formation editor, then selecting a wingman (the same procedure for viewing a formation of ships). Aircraft will chase their station marker. The throttle has no preset/label for "chase" so it shows as "cruise" (or whatever you set), but it's running faster. Aircraft tasked on mission, but launched in a flight, don't loiter by the carrier to form-up, so later wingmen burn a ton of fuel trying to catch up to the lead.

2. Aircraft tasked on mission (support, patrol) don't follow the throttle settings configured in the F11 mission planner. Your speed issue is also caused by this. For example, an AEW on a support mission will fly to refpoint #1 using the "transit" speed, but will not switch to "on-station" as it flies its circuit. The "active emissions only on station" option also fails because the game never recognizes that the aircraft is on-station. My AAW patrols (flying around a defined area of refpoints) also suffer from this. I manually adjust their "transit" speed to loiter once they're on station.

I can reproduce these issues on two computers with two fresh installs, with existing scenarios or new clean scenarios, with any DB3000 version, and only on CMO. When combined with the bug where strike missions go RTB as they launch, it makes using flights and missions very difficult. I'm forced to use single aircraft for everything, monitor and manipulate the "transit" speed and emcon settings, and operate all strikes by hand.

This has been posted often with no dev recognition or solution in sight.

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 8
RE: Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground Attack Pro... - 11/28/2019 3:00:12 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline
Issue ticket updated with additional info

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cookie_Booker
This has been posted often with no dev recognition or solution in sight.


This kind of comment is not helpful. We're working on it.

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(in reply to Cookie_Booker)
Post #: 9
RE: [Logged] Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground A... - 12/10/2019 9:16:05 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13181
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
Here is a very simple bombing scenario. It involves a two-plane group attacking four defenseless buildings using Mk84 LDGP bombs.

After the planes take off, you will notice that one plane has less fuel than the other. Both took off at the same time. By clicking on each, you will see that one plane is using approximately 30 more kg per minute than the other plane. Why? I have no clue. If you follow this around after the attack, then you will see that after the planes return to their normal 480 kts, that one plane again begins using fuel at a higher rate. In essence, at 480 kts, the planes are at two different fuel consumption rates. At 520 kts, they are spending the same. As with the other scenario before, one plane will end up with much less fuel than the other.

EDIT 1: Repeating the same exercise, but splitting the two planes (each flying solo, not combined in a group), each of the planes expends the same amount of fuel at the expected rate. So, the grouping, for some unknown reason, causes this.

As a second note, the planes fire these bombs from 36000 feet. In previous tests, the planes are much more accurate from lower altitudes than from 36000 feet. I don't know if this is by your design or not, but I would think that they should be lower. In continuing the scenario from where you are now, my planes were only able to hit two of the four buildings. That seems low to me.

EDIT 2: CMANO previously handled this situation by flying at 36000 ft; dropping down to 200 ft just before the attack run; popping up to 1500 ft and activating the laser and firing. Using all four targets were easily destroyed. I believe that 36000 is too high for the laser-guided bombs, so the flight profile has been changed from what used to work real well.


I just tried this save, using B1121.1. The two aircraft followed the same exact flight path (speed + altitude). When they entered the landing pattern on the return leg, the difference int heir fuel levels was the same as in the start of the save file, indicating that their fuel burn during the flight (from the save onwards) was identical.

I think this can be called fixed.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 12/10/2019 9:23:20 AM >


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(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 10
RE: Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground Attack Pro... - 12/10/2019 9:19:18 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13181
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
Dimitris,

We are close to fixing the fuel consumption thing, but there are still two issues to look at.

When FlightDisco43 (top left of the screen) originally took off, one of the two planes expends more fuel than the other. It's very noticeable and apparent looking at the two fuel bars. Eventually, however, they get in sync, but one still shows a deficit.

Then, after the bombing run, the flight is heading for the tanker. (This is the point where I am displaying in the save.) One plane again is flying faster than the other. It is traveling at 520 kts (but is listed as LOITER), while the other is traveling at 480, but is listed as CRUISE. The speeds are reversed from what you would expect. It probably has something to do with the fact that the original fuel levels were off just after takeoff. So again, one is using more fuel than the other.

Finally, if you originally send out the planes as single units, it seems to work perfectly, so the grouping seems to be "the thing" that is still a little off.


I just tested this now, using B1121.1. I monitored both flight Mustang42 and flight Disco43, as both of them were heading after the tanker to refuel.

In both flights, the wingmen stuck by the flight leads at identical speed and altitude, and fuel burn.

Unless I have overlooked something, this appears to be fixed.



< Message edited by Dimitris -- 12/10/2019 9:23:33 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 11
RE: Fuel Consumption rates and Air to Ground Attack Pro... - 12/10/2019 9:22:21 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13181
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cookie_Booker
I discovered both of these bugs on the day of release and have posted it to Discord several times (as have other people), but it continues unresolved.

1. Wingmen in a flight will chase, but almost never reach, their (new in CMO) formation station. Because they are chasing, their speed (and fuel consumption) are higher than the lead aircraft. You can see this by "Tracking" the flight and entering the F4 formation editor, then selecting a wingman (the same procedure for viewing a formation of ships). Aircraft will chase their station marker. The throttle has no preset/label for "chase" so it shows as "cruise" (or whatever you set), but it's running faster. Aircraft tasked on mission, but launched in a flight, don't loiter by the carrier to form-up, so later wingmen burn a ton of fuel trying to catch up to the lead.

2. Aircraft tasked on mission (support, patrol) don't follow the throttle settings configured in the F11 mission planner. Your speed issue is also caused by this. For example, an AEW on a support mission will fly to refpoint #1 using the "transit" speed, but will not switch to "on-station" as it flies its circuit. The "active emissions only on station" option also fails because the game never recognizes that the aircraft is on-station. My AAW patrols (flying around a defined area of refpoints) also suffer from this. I manually adjust their "transit" speed to loiter once they're on station.

I can reproduce these issues on two computers with two fresh installs, with existing scenarios or new clean scenarios, with any DB3000 version, and only on CMO. When combined with the bug where strike missions go RTB as they launch, it makes using flights and missions very difficult. I'm forced to use single aircraft for everything, monitor and manipulate the "transit" speed and emcon settings, and operate all strikes by hand.

This has been posted often with no dev recognition or solution in sight.


Discord is good for quick communication, but we really need separate forum threads in order to effectively track and resolve issues. Please post the problems you have observed on a new thread, with suitable save files that we can use for investigation. (See also: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3585262). Thank you in advance.

_____________________________


(in reply to Cookie_Booker)
Post #: 12
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