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Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire

 
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Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/14/2019 8:00:12 PM   
spence

 

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http://www.combinedfleet.com/articles.htm

Couple of great articles re Operation C. There's even a photo of KMS Bismarck in front of HMS Dorsetshire's torpedo tubes. It looks Bismarck is seriously down by the stern in the photo.
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RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/14/2019 8:55:22 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence


http://www.combinedfleet.com/articles.htm

Couple of great articles re Operation C. There's even a photo of KMS Bismarck in front of HMS Dorsetshire's torpedo tubes. It looks Bismarck is seriously down by the stern in the photo.
warspite1

Excellent thanks for sharing, I will devour these at the weekend.....


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RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/15/2019 3:00:05 PM   
Dili

 

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Yep. Thanks.

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RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/15/2019 10:45:15 PM   
sstevens06


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spence, this is very good. Thank you!

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RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/16/2019 6:24:42 PM   
jagsdomain

 

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Great list of articals!!!

I have not had the time to read shatter sword. My question about Fuchida's and the recent discussion about him and trying to prove him wrong, is why is negative information about him belived over his statements? Why should we through out everything from the past based on one book.
Taking Midway as a starting point. Dick best put 1 bomb in the CV and it blew up. If Fuchida's was not correct 1 bomb should not have sunk that CV.

I dont really have a horse in the race but I find it interesting that one book comes out and everyone turns on him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence


http://www.combinedfleet.com/articles.htm

Couple of great articles re Operation C. There's even a photo of KMS Bismarck in front of HMS Dorsetshire's torpedo tubes. It looks Bismarck is seriously down by the stern in the photo.


(in reply to spence)
Post #: 5
RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/16/2019 9:17:31 PM   
Dili

 

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Problems with Fuchida accounts were already known.

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RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/16/2019 9:29:51 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

My question about Fuchida's and the recent discussion about him and trying to prove him wrong,


It was Japanese scholarship/research that proved him wrong first and the writers wrote in Japanese which is not widely spoken in the West and is difficult to learn being of a different language root than Western languages. The reasons that his version was accepted widely in the West was that his account was published first in the West in English AND his account had the advantage of being written by a person who had converted to a Western religion (Christianity).

< Message edited by spence -- 11/16/2019 10:22:49 PM >

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RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/16/2019 10:15:52 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jagsdomain

Great list of articals!!!

I have not had the time to read shatter sword. My question about Fuchida's and the recent discussion about him and trying to prove him wrong, is why is negative information about him belived over his statements? Why should we through out everything from the past based on one book.
Taking Midway as a starting point. Dick best put 1 bomb in the CV and it blew up. If Fuchida's was not correct 1 bomb should not have sunk that CV.

I dont really have a horse in the race but I find it interesting that one book comes out and everyone turns on him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence


http://www.combinedfleet.com/articles.htm

Couple of great articles re Operation C. There's even a photo of KMS Bismarck in front of HMS Dorsetshire's torpedo tubes. It looks Bismarck is seriously down by the stern in the photo.


warspite1

Parschall and Tully give an excellent explanation of Fuchida's account and why it was accepted in the west for so long. Seriously, if you play this game and you haven't read Shattered Sword then.... well let's just say you really should read this excellent tome .


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/16/2019 10:16:17 PM >


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RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/16/2019 11:12:20 PM   
John 3rd


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That is an understatement Warspite! Read that book...


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RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/17/2019 8:02:46 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41764
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence


http://www.combinedfleet.com/articles.htm

Couple of great articles re Operation C. There's even a photo of KMS Bismarck in front of HMS Dorsetshire's torpedo tubes. It looks Bismarck is seriously down by the stern in the photo.
warspite1

Getting through these. Great reads.

One I was drawn to and got sidetracked with was the:

Oil and Japanese Strategy in the Solomons: A Postulate

Any mention of the Regia Marina in WWII brings an almost immediate reference to oil. One doesn't see that as much (and certainly not in the early year or so of the war) with Japan. But this article makes clear perhaps it should be given more consideration.

What that article also helps reinforce - as if any reinforcing were needed - is that just about whichever way you look at the Midway operation, the Japanese got it totally and utterly wrong. The oil situation alone makes the fleet's make up and composition simply mind blowing.....

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/17/2019 8:03:11 AM >


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RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/17/2019 11:12:48 AM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
What that article also helps reinforce - as if any reinforcing were needed - is that just about whichever way you look at the Midway operation, the Japanese got it totally and utterly wrong. The oil situation alone makes the fleet's make up and composition simply mind blowing.....

Midway wasn't seen by Japan as a wrong choice in relation to her oil situation. The oil usage for such a major operational commitment was already built into Japanese pre-war planning. Midway was supposed to be the Decisive Battle that would give the Japanese unchallenged naval control of the Pacific for the near future, allowing her to consolidate her conquests (including oil resources) and reduce her naval operations back to something more affordable in terms of fuel usage. As would be expected for a Decisive Battle, Japan naturally committed the bulk of her major units to ensure that victory over what was expected to be the bulk of the US Navy's major combatants.

To the Japanese (or at least to Yamamoto), it was to be oil well spent now to avoid an excessive operational drain in the future. Assuming it all went as planned, of course.



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RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/17/2019 3:29:18 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
What that article also helps reinforce - as if any reinforcing were needed - is that just about whichever way you look at the Midway operation, the Japanese got it totally and utterly wrong. The oil situation alone makes the fleet's make up and composition simply mind blowing.....

Midway wasn't seen by Japan as a wrong choice in relation to her oil situation. The oil usage for such a major operational commitment was already built into Japanese pre-war planning. Midway was supposed to be the Decisive Battle that would give the Japanese unchallenged naval control of the Pacific for the near future, allowing her to consolidate her conquests (including oil resources) and reduce her naval operations back to something more affordable in terms of fuel usage. As would be expected for a Decisive Battle, Japan naturally committed the bulk of her major units to ensure that victory over what was expected to be the bulk of the US Navy's major combatants.

To the Japanese (or at least to Yamamoto), it was to be oil well spent now to avoid an excessive operational drain in the future. Assuming it all went as planned, of course.

warspite1

Indeed. I guess its just difficult to marry up the thought that they thought such an abortion of a plan could be their decisive battle..... But of course, they assumed it would all go to plan....


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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RE: Details of sinking of HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire - 11/17/2019 4:04:04 PM   
fcooke

 

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I haven't studied the Russo-Japan war or Japan's actions in WW1, but I do find the fascination with breaking up the forces into many separate groups to be 'interesting'. If you are looking for the 'big battle', bring everything you have. Don't send ships to Alaska, don't keep the 'main body' hundreds of miles to the rear of KB. And then they kept repeating the practice. Ryujo as bait near Guadalcanal. The whole nonsense in the Philippines. When to you learn?

(in reply to warspite1)
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