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Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls

 
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Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/4/2019 10:08:54 AM   
c3k

 

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(Mods, I'm not sure where to put this, please move as needed.)

Reading the articles in the Naval and Defense News thread, I'm struck by the apparent thinness of modern hulls. You can see the substructure behind the skin. The "waffle" pattern is very apparent.

I know that armor is not used as much as it once was. I assume that's because the thought was that nuclear warheads made all armor obsolete. However, there have been a lot of examples of conventional warheads causing crippling damage with just one hit. This would seem to indicate that there is an argument made in favor of increasing the armor. Has that happened?

For example, does the hull of an Arleigh Burke, Flight III, DDG have the ability to withstand a .50 caliber round? 20mm? 57mm? Etc.

Looking at various websites, I see no indication of any armor ratings.

Thanks,

Ken
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RE: Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/4/2019 1:46:40 PM   
kevinkins


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Not addressing your question, but when I first started playing Command, I was struck how resilient warships and large commercial ships are to above the waterline hits. Air strikes are very inefficient unless you fire anti ship missiles in mass and a few get through the air defence. That's why I will award points in a scenario for anywhere between 25 to 50% damage. It's very hard to flat out sink most ships.

Kevin

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RE: Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/4/2019 2:56:20 PM   
Andrea G


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Speaking of commercial ships they have a lot of buoyancy supply, so even with significant damage above the line they will stay afloat for hours and even days; obviously not considering mismanagement in the watertightness (aka Costa Concordia).
Even with raging fires from bow to stern most of the hulls will remain floating, like Moby Prince or Norman Atlantic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Norman_Atlantic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby_Prince_disaster

< Message edited by Andrea G -- 11/4/2019 2:59:59 PM >


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RE: Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/4/2019 3:31:18 PM   
c3k

 

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Thanks.

Obviously, penetrating hits above the waterline are unlikely to cause sinking without fires or other catastrophic damage. But what about the electronics and other internals which are there to allow the ship to fight? Can a hull be turned into swiss-cheese by several .50 cals mounted on RHIBs? What about 30mm cannon on patrol boats? Sure, each 30mm shell would cause little structural damage, but how many data cable bundles, computers, CIC, sailors, etc., would be destroyed by the internal explosion of these relatively small cannon shells? A quick burst of the cannon would dump a dozen or more shells through the hull...if it's not armored or hardened.

I'm curious about modern naval architecture and what level of protection is afforded to warships against guns (and to a lesser extent, to missiles). Any armor is better than none... What do they have?

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RE: Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/4/2019 5:15:44 PM   
TheOriginalOverlord

 

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.50 cal AP or API will make nice little 3/8" holes in a ships hull...

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RE: Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/5/2019 11:39:21 AM   
1nutworld

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c3k

Thanks.

Obviously, penetrating hits above the waterline are unlikely to cause sinking without fires or other catastrophic damage. But what about the electronics and other internals which are there to allow the ship to fight? Can a hull be turned into swiss-cheese by several .50 cals mounted on RHIBs? What about 30mm cannon on patrol boats? Sure, each 30mm shell would cause little structural damage, but how many data cable bundles, computers, CIC, sailors, etc., would be destroyed by the internal explosion of these relatively small cannon shells? A quick burst of the cannon would dump a dozen or more shells through the hull...if it's not armored or hardened.

I'm curious about modern naval architecture and what level of protection is afforded to warships against guns (and to a lesser extent, to missiles). Any armor is better than none... What do they have?


If you have a copy of the sim. Load a blank scenario in....say using a Freedom Class Littoral ship and then have an opponent side launch an attack with RHIB's or Patrol Boat with a cannon and see what kind of damage is the result of numerous attacks. You can determine yourself if enough damage will cause a " mission kill" by knocking out enough weapons systems or electronics.

Just an idea.

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RE: Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/5/2019 1:04:41 PM   
kch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c3k

Thanks.

Obviously, penetrating hits above the waterline are unlikely to cause sinking without fires or other catastrophic damage. But what about the electronics and other internals which are there to allow the ship to fight? Can a hull be turned into swiss-cheese by several .50 cals mounted on RHIBs? What about 30mm cannon on patrol boats? Sure, each 30mm shell would cause little structural damage, but how many data cable bundles, computers, CIC, sailors, etc., would be destroyed by the internal explosion of these relatively small cannon shells? A quick burst of the cannon would dump a dozen or more shells through the hull...if it's not armored or hardened.

I'm curious about modern naval architecture and what level of protection is afforded to warships against guns (and to a lesser extent, to missiles). Any armor is better than none... What do they have?



You have to remember that warships have a lot of redundancies in their systems so a few penetrating hits are unlikely to disable all systems. Also the systems themselves are not right behind the hull. They are usually protected by numerous sections and/or shields that will make small penetrating hits unlikely to do much except ventilation. Think of ww2 destroyer that also were in unarmored yet had much more vulnerable systems inside like extensive piping yet they were remarkably resistant to attacks and often made it through despite being hit with heavy munitions .

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RE: Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/6/2019 2:06:20 AM   
Gunner98

 

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CMANO
quote:

.50 cal AP or API will make nice little 3/8" holes in a ships hull...


1/2 inch holes actually

I think the point is that ship designers are banking against that sort of catastrophic damage from small projectiles by building ships with redundant systems, running conduits in protected areas, probably shielded areas within the ship and good buoyancy which would be countered with the weight of armour protection.

One aspect I am currently learning a lot about is ice protection. Hulls are strengthened to withstand various levels of ice, not as in an Ice-breaker, but simply to operate in areas where ice flow is present, forecasted or prevalent. I don't know enough to articulate the detail here but I wonder if ice protected ships have an armour bonus in CMANO? Don't have the game available but someone might check the Danish Thetis class OPV.

B

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RE: Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/6/2019 10:22:04 AM   
c3k

 

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SLAP rounds have a hardened core, so they may leave a hole a bit smaller than 1/2". (If that's what was being referred to, upstream.)

As to using the game to model it, well, if the game just dumps a big "damage points available" on a ship and then gives a 20mm round a DP value, I don't see how that would model, say, strafing the bridge. Or ripping through the CIC. Or simulating a rubber raft being brought alongside with some high explosive.

Regardless, it seems amazing that naval warships seem to prize cost of operation over protection. Lighter hulls make for cheaper construction, and cheaper cruising.

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RE: Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/6/2019 11:20:55 AM   
thewood1

 

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Ships aren't armored like WW1 and WW2 ships because the major threat to a ship today is a missile with a very large warhead. One hit might not sink a larger ship, but will most likely mission kill it. Decades ago naval ship designers came to the conclusion that you can't effectively put enough armor on a ship to stop a large warhead from penetrating and destroying a large portion of the ship.

As Gunner said, the main design feature now is as much redundancy, self-defense, and maneuverability as possible to give the ship a chance. Keep in mind that a harpoon missile has 500 lb of shape-charged explosives. By comparison, a TOW missile can penetrate 3-4 ft. of specialized tank armor with only a couple pounds of shaped charge explosives. And compare that to a 5" shell that has less than 40 lb. Granted the shell can leave a hole, but it took numerous hits of lightly armored WW2 destroyers to put them out of action. Also remember that a large amount of the devastation caused in the Falklands was burning missile fuel.

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RE: Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/6/2019 7:00:55 PM   
SeaQueen


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A cruise missile is less like a gun round and more like a kamikaze loaded with fused bombs, if you're looking for a WWII analogy. Aircraft carriers do have a fair amount of armor. Their flight deck is made of heavy armor plate. The problem is that with modern anti-ship missiles, it just doesn't do much good. As was mentioned earlier, shaped charges in the 100lb+ class are frighteningly powerful, and will slice through most armor. Imagine getting hit by a hypersonic weapon, or a ballistic missile, which could blow a gaping hole through the carrier's armor with just its kinetic energy, never mind the explosives.

Ultimately, though, WWII is a poor source of analogies for contemporary naval combat, which so often amounts to a race to move the carriers into striking range of the enemy's centers of gravity before their defensive capabilities are depleted and they're forced to withdraw.

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RE: Level of ballistic protection, modern hulls - 11/6/2019 7:23:06 PM   
TheOriginalOverlord

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

CMANO
quote:

.50 cal AP or API will make nice little 3/8" holes in a ships hull...


1/2 inch holes actually

B

Well technically its .425 as thats the size of the tool steel penetrator inside the 50cal copper jacket. its the part that makes the holes.

Some good views of 50cals hitting regular steel ships. You will get lots of secondary damage (if you get enough rounds on it) like sensors and weapons damaged. Get a big enough burst into the water line and you will be shipping quite a bit a water through lots of holes.

[image]https://youtu.be/yg2TxeoHNqk[/image]

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