Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Taranto and the future Pacific war

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> WarPlan >> Taranto and the future Pacific war Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 9:43:58 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
Some questions I can not answer by reading the manual. I apologize if this has already been answered.

Is it possible to attack ships in a port by air (land or carrier based)?
In this case, should I select a naval air mission to attack this port?


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
Post #: 1
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 12:52:02 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


Posts: 3406
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
Port attack - Naturally. You can even attack ships in port with a fleet. But the size of the port is also their naval defense which shoots are incoming fleets. There is actually a strategy to porting fleets correctly.

Air Mission - Yes. Select attack air and viola you can attack ships in port.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 2
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 1:10:28 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
Thanks a lot.


While I am at it since I was thinking of Taranto that was a night air mission. I have seen that there is "night move" for fleets except for carriers.
I remember that some famous naval battles around Guadalcanal were done at night but not sure this is done for this.

And I have started to think about night air mission too:
1. Bomber Command was doing night air mission as well
2. In Pacific, there were few air raids on Truk that were night air missions.

And then I have realized we are at strategic level and at two weeks turn. May be too early to speak of night air raids or night naval engagements...


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Alvaro Sousa)
Post #: 3
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 2:23:30 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


Posts: 3406
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
I originally had night missions but it was too.... Not sure how to put it... unused. It also was gamey.

Now the night naval missions are different. They do serve a function. Specifically in the Pacific. But I thought it would be nice to include them here.

As for carriers not being able to do night missions. It's because they don't operate at night.

Naval system took a very long time to think about, develop, and plan. Right now I have one naval issue I have to resolve I discovered before the next patch. More of a functionality issue than anything for the players.

As for Pearl Harbor... I will figure it out.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 4
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 2:38:00 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

As for carriers not being able to do night missions. It's because they don't operate at night.


Well US navy has done a very good job during the war to develop night fighters operating from carriers. The night air raids on Truk, i was referring to, where coming from carriers.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Alvaro Sousa)
Post #: 5
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 2:41:37 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


Posts: 3406
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
Ahh ok

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 6
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 2:59:03 PM   
Essro

 

Posts: 117
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline
I attempted a Taranto raid and failed.

The British aircraft failed to located the Italian fleet (they were in port) or so the game told me.

It's been my only attempt at a port raid.

Not sure what to make of it. Seems like they searched as if the fleet was at sea.


(in reply to Alvaro Sousa)
Post #: 7
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 3:27:25 PM   
incbob


Posts: 309
Joined: 6/23/2004
From: Cameron, Missouri
Status: offline
Okay. I am confused now.
If I want to attack ships in a port is this considered attacking the port.

If I want to attack a port what kind of attack do I choose?

(in reply to Essro)
Post #: 8
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 3:57:58 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


Posts: 3406
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
If you have air units just put them on naval mission and attack a port with enemy naval units.

If you have a fleet you need to sail 1 hex away from the port to attack it just like you would attack a fleet at sea. You need an operation point left. Technically you could gather a 9 size fleet of battle groups, go to Malta, then in one shot move and attack Taranto. You will take a pounding from the port defenses. Then on the enemy turn they will pound you with air power. I never said it was easy or viable. I just said you could do it.

As for port strikes with carrier groups. It is incredibly hard to sail a carrier fleet to a location and have surprise on the enemy to inflict devastating losses on them. So many factors come into play. So if I allowed 100% of the time a carrier force to strike Taranto. Imagine what would happen.

Every game I would sacrifice every carrier just to sink the Italians. I would happily trade 2 for 1 ships with the Axis forces.



_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to incbob)
Post #: 9
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 9:42:03 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2627
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

If you have air units just put them on naval mission and attack a port with enemy naval units.

If you have a fleet you need to sail 1 hex away from the port to attack it just like you would attack a fleet at sea. You need an operation point left. Technically you could gather a 9 size fleet of battle groups, go to Malta, then in one shot move and attack Taranto. You will take a pounding from the port defenses. Then on the enemy turn they will pound you with air power. I never said it was easy or viable. I just said you could do it.

As for port strikes with carrier groups. It is incredibly hard to sail a carrier fleet to a location and have surprise on the enemy to inflict devastating losses on them. So many factors come into play. So if I allowed 100% of the time a carrier force to strike Taranto. Imagine what would happen.

Every game I would sacrifice every carrier just to sink the Italians. I would happily trade 2 for 1 ships with the Axis forces.




Taranto, Pearl Harbor …. and these are just off the top of my head ….. there are probably other examples

(in reply to Alvaro Sousa)
Post #: 10
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 9:48:54 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

Taranto, Pearl Harbor …. and these are just off the top of my head ….. there are probably other examples


Truk raid (Operation Hailstone) was a complete surprise for Japanese.

Extract from Wikipedia: "Because of these factors, U.S. carrier aircraft achieved total surprise."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Hailstone


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 11
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 10:03:31 PM   
Cohen_slith

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline
What Alvaro is saying, is that then -every- single turn, the Brits would do a port strike to the Italians.
I am not even sure if fighters react to it - but anyhow it is proved at the moment fighters shot blanks to bombers or so.

Thus to allow a functioning port strike is a problem.

World in Flames has the same, you roll for surprise - both sides do. You may also get the defenders waiting at the read with anti air and interceptors your mission. There are fair chances that there is no combat at all. (Like ships were just out for some training or the like.)

Taranto was a case where the Brits had litterally grand help of espionage to learn even at which depth the anti-torpedo Italian nets dipped down in the water; paired up by Italians not expecting such type of strike.
Truk raid - forgive me - when that happened the USA were pratically unopposed already in their maneuvers unless they were suicidal.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 12
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 10:34:16 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Truk raid - forgive me - when that happened the USA were pratically unopposed already in their maneuvers unless they were suicidal.


"I can run wild for six months ... after that, I have no expectation of success."


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Cohen_slith)
Post #: 13
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/3/2019 10:56:38 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2627
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
Even Midway (not a port strike) where the US had prior knowledge of the IJN intentions still didn't know where or when they would show up and expended a boatload of recon resources attempting to find them … hence my concern with FOW ….

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 14
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/4/2019 3:53:04 AM   
Essro

 

Posts: 117
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

If you have air units just put them on naval mission and attack a port with enemy naval units.

If you have a fleet you need to sail 1 hex away from the port to attack it just like you would attack a fleet at sea. You need an operation point left. Technically you could gather a 9 size fleet of battle groups, go to Malta, then in one shot move and attack Taranto. You will take a pounding from the port defenses. Then on the enemy turn they will pound you with air power. I never said it was easy or viable. I just said you could do it.

As for port strikes with carrier groups. It is incredibly hard to sail a carrier fleet to a location and have surprise on the enemy to inflict devastating losses on them. So many factors come into play. So if I allowed 100% of the time a carrier force to strike Taranto. Imagine what would happen.

Every game I would sacrifice every carrier just to sink the Italians. I would happily trade 2 for 1 ships with the Axis forces.





totally agree.

It made me laugh though as I didn't know what was going to happen. But yes, of course, there should be a high failure rate. There are probably more failed raids than successful. I'm noting everyone bringing up examples of spectacular raids but for every one of those how many failed?

Launching off a rickety UK carrier in a Swordfish in choppy seas and and heading straight for the Italian coastline using basic flight navigation, while looking for enemy etc etc

here is a failed raid...I guess more of an interception than a did not find the port but still...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Heligoland_Bight_(1939)


One thing is for sure, I don't envy the task of trying to reconcile all the naval variables that are going to be involved in a PTO design. You got some tough work ahead.

EDIT: I almost forgot to mention--this type of variable result is awesome in solo play and works so well with the FOW aspects of Warplan. This game is a joy solitaire. You really get to examine some interesting situations.




< Message edited by Essro -- 11/4/2019 3:56:48 AM >

(in reply to Alvaro Sousa)
Post #: 15
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/4/2019 7:12:48 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Essro

here is a failed raid...I guess more of an interception than a did not find the port but still...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Heligoland_Bight_(1939)


Thanks for the link, very interesting. Still learning from WW2, incredible...

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Essro)
Post #: 16
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/4/2019 7:20:06 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


Posts: 3406
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
If you look at the list of books I used as a resource for WarPlan you will be very well educated in WW2. Some of the books are taught at the masters level for a degree in military history.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 17
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/4/2019 9:14:38 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
Well, I am not too bad myself.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Alvaro Sousa)
Post #: 18
RE: Taranto and the future Pacific war - 11/6/2019 11:01:45 AM   
george420


Posts: 21
Joined: 10/25/2017
Status: offline
Night air actions in the Pacific were relatively rare and probably not worth the extra rules necessary. The night actions at Quadalcanal were all gun duels, the two carrier battles being daytime affairs.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 19
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> WarPlan >> Taranto and the future Pacific war Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.201