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Driver back! The doctrine of shooting.

 
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Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/2/2019 1:40:26 PM   
blackcloud6


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In the 1980s, the US Army trained the Abrams and Bradley crews to find firing positions where the vehicle could be set in a turret down position where the commander could expose his sight and view the battle field. When a target is acquired and to be engaged, he would order the vehicle forward to expose the gun and gunner's sight, lay on the target and then order the shot. After firing the commander would order "driver back" bring the vehicle back to turret down position.

Now granted, these types of positions cannot always be found but good commanders could find buildings or woods to do somewhat the same, where after shooting the vehicle could be reversed into a less exposed position.

As far as I can tell one cannot do this in AB and it was always a problem in games like Steel Panthers MBT, especially for defenders. The defending vehicle shoot and then are immediately exposed to return fire.

So, could there be a way to give units a SOP command to fire and then reverse a bit automatically to reduce exposure? That would bring an important aspect of firing doctrine into play.

Another neat SOP would be "alternating firing position" where the unit is set to fire, reverse and then moves to a predesignated position, say one or two squares away, and it can alternate back and forth. Again, another way to bring in the "micro-doctrines" of armored vehicle warfare.

I understand these bring programming challenges, but if it is possible would bring a dose of realism to the sim.
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RE: Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/2/2019 2:07:25 PM   
Jace11

 

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Difficult maybe but not impossible, in the Tac AI of the latest iteration of the Combat Mission engine, a tank can be ordered to find a hull down position to a specific point point on the map but once there, it relies on further, very finicky, orders from the player to do what you describe with shoot and reverse type tactics.

The stand out example is Steel Beasts Pro, where the AI driver does exactly this automatically when the situation allows (hull down at a battle position on a reverse slope). It's pretty cool when you're in the gunners seat.

(in reply to blackcloud6)
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RE: Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/2/2019 2:15:52 PM   
Lowlaner2012

 

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Good points, although there is a way to get similar results, I generally use delayed waypoints to shoot and scoot...

You can stack move orders using the CTRL key, so there will be no orders delay when you need to reverse out of an exposed position..

Jace I am a big fan of combat mission but the latest iteration of the engine has a lot of problems, I have come across a few of them myself, like troops that evade MG fire by running towards the enemy lines, in fact I have put a pause on play because of this and other Tac AI problems with version 4....

< Message edited by Lowlaner2012 -- 11/2/2019 2:20:33 PM >

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RE: Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/2/2019 6:21:48 PM   
exsonic01

 

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"Shoot and scoop" has been suggested several times before, I suggested during closed beta and others suggested too.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4638407
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4556873
As far as I remember, devs mentioned several reasons why they didn't put shoot and scoop. To begin with, devs of this game value AI-player balance really seriously. Anything player do should be able to be performed by AI and any action should be easily programmable by coders or moders. (AI-player balance issue is one of the reason why area fire is not introduced in this game) Check this answer from dev: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4641909

1) It is hard to write a code exactly when and where AI order AI's units to perform shoot and scoop, and how much reverse and where to reverse? Player knows when and where might be the best moment and timing for shoot and scoop, but writing a condition for AI to follow human player using if-loop and for-loop looks not easy. As far as I know, combat mission AI and SB pro AI is not perfect as well. I can't recall AI really performed shoot and scoop maneuver against me.
2) Some tanks, especially T-72 series, has very poor reverse speed of 4km/h. In this case shoot and scoop wouldn't be useful neither tactical. For T-72 and T-80, it would be better to just stay still or forward.
3) Currently, the best way to try similar thing is finish your waypoint with scout command. Scout command will make your unit launches smoke and reverse. But I don't like the idea of using smoke during scout command so I usually don't use scout command for shoot and scoop alternative.

As an ex-army (not US army though) and as an avid SB Pro / CMBS player, I wish to see shoot and scoop too. And I still think this might be possible in this game, by slightly tweaking scout command. Or, introduce "shoot and scoop defend" command, basically same command with defend command but reverse after 2~3 shots. Any other idea would be good too.


(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
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RE: Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/2/2019 6:23:27 PM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:


Another neat SOP would be "alternating firing position" where the unit is set to fire, reverse and then moves to a predesignated position, say one or two squares away, and it can alternate back and forth. Again, another way to bring in the "micro-doctrines" of armored vehicle warfare.

I like this idea, but this behavior should be reverse -> forward, not just turn and move. But again, condition for AI to when and where to engage such maneuver or command is still not an easy task. I think some tweaking of scout command or defend command would work.

(in reply to exsonic01)
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RE: Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/4/2019 7:35:10 AM   
DoubleDeuce


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This kind of goes along with the reverse brought up by the OP BUT, I would like to see units reverse more often when repositioning (changing formation). Right now, in the instances I have seen, going from things like Line to Wedge formation, the flank vehicles will turn completely around with their rear armor exposed and drive back to the new location, they turn around, even in the presence of enemy units. they should back up to the new positions, especially when out in the open.

Another thing. When contact is made vehicles should probably traverse their turrets only to bring fire on the enemy. Right now they seem to turn the entire vehicle that way BUT they never orient back to their original position unless manually directed. I have had and entire tank company turn completely around to fire at an enemy helicopter spotted in their rear, shoot it down then stay pointed that same direction. Immediately after the helicopter went down enemy ATG's opened up on their exposed rears and wiped the entire company out before I could get them turned around.

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RE: Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/4/2019 2:14:16 PM   
exsonic01

 

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These are good points, turning of turret not vehicle. Maybe you should write a separate post for that issue.

In the end, what I wish to see in AB is that each units has a bit of freedom of movement for tactically sound maneuvering. This includes automatic shoot and scoop maneuver by AI or good decision making to turn turret or turn vehicle or etc. But I guess all of those will take good amount of time to fix. AI is not an easy thing to fix.

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RE: Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/5/2019 11:25:07 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

2) Some tanks, especially T-72 series, has very poor reverse speed of 4km/h. In this case shoot and scoop wouldn't be useful neither tactical. For T-72 and T-80, it would be better to just stay still or forward.

Shouldn't it be easy to make a check for reverse speed?

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People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to exsonic01)
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RE: Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/6/2019 3:17:58 AM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Shouldn't it be easy to make a check for reverse speed?

You mean, change the reverse speed? As far as I know, 4km/h reverse speed of T-72 variants during cold war is historically accurate...

(in reply to Perturabo)
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RE: Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/6/2019 4:39:08 AM   
Policefreak55

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Shouldn't it be easy to make a check for reverse speed?

You mean, change the reverse speed? As far as I know, 4km/h reverse speed of T-72 variants during cold war is historically accurate...

I believe he means a check to run against the vehicle's reverse speed in code to see if it would allow tactically for shoot and scoop.

< Message edited by Policefreak55 -- 11/6/2019 4:42:04 AM >

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RE: Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/6/2019 2:02:12 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Shouldn't it be easy to make a check for reverse speed?

You mean, change the reverse speed? As far as I know, 4km/h reverse speed of T-72 variants during cold war is historically accurate...

I mean setting up minimal reverse speed required for the shoot and scoot behaviour. So for example if unit has reverse speed less than for example 20km/h, it won't shoot and scoot.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 11/6/2019 2:03:02 PM >


_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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RE: Driver back! The doctrine of shooting. - 11/6/2019 2:09:52 PM   
exsonic01

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Policefreak55
I believe he means a check to run against the vehicle's reverse speed in code to see if it would allow tactically for shoot and scoop.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
I mean setting up minimal reverse speed required for the shoot and scoot behaviour. So for example if unit has reverse speed less than for example 20km/h, it won't shoot and scoot.

OK I got it guys, I agree it is good idea, to set minimum reverse speed for shoot and scoop, or check if it is true such slow reverse speed makes shoot and scoop meaningless... I wish to test them if such behavior is modeled in this game in the future.

(in reply to Perturabo)
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