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Unbeatable Allies?

 
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Unbeatable Allies? - 10/26/2019 7:34:24 PM   
brianreid

 

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Question: I am playing the scenario "Autumn Fog". In the North portion of the map is the British 2nd Army. This Army is in the attack zone of a couple of German Panzer Korps. I have bunched up about 5-6 powerful and elite German Panzer units ready to bash in behind the British 2nd Army. That being said, the British 7. Armored Divisions 22nd Armored Brigade is positioned right where I planned to attack. So, I moved up 2+ German Panzer divisions into the attack zone, and I launched the attack with the two divisions, plus anywhere from 5-10 additional artillery battalions. I have tried attacking this British Armored Brigade about two dozen times over the past hour or so, and I have had odds anywhere from 10-1 to 28-1 in the Germans favor, and yet each and every time the 22. Armored Brigade inflicts huge losses on the Germans. I finally took a couple of screen shots to show just how absurd the odds were in the Germans favor, and yet each every time the 22. Armored Brigade devastates the German Panzer units. I had to double check to make sure that the 22. Armored Brigade wasn't armed with the newest 2019 British Main Battle tanks (i.e. Challenger 2). I must have tried this particular battle around 20 different times, and each time I came up with the Germans suffering around 20%+ casualties, and the British suffering around 5% casualties, even though I had overwhelming odds. As a side note, the British unit is not dug in at all (0% entrenchment), they are in open terrain, and the British unit even had a low efficiency of around 60%. Never the less, one would think this was a time warp, and the WWII Germans were going up against modern British units.

I have included a screen shot to show the incredible odds which the Germans had.

Does anyone have any input on why, with absolutely overwhelming odds, the Germans are suffering such huge losses? Thanks.

Brian B.



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< Message edited by brianreid -- 10/26/2019 7:38:41 PM >
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RE: Unbeatable Allies? - 10/26/2019 7:36:55 PM   
brianreid

 

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Attached to this message is a second screenshot of the combat result from the battle where the Germans had 28-1 odds. See the previous screen shot from the detail of the incredible odds that the Germans had.

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RE: Unbeatable Allies? - 10/26/2019 8:16:15 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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From just a cursory look, the Germans have red density in all their hexes.

What I can't tell is if the British have any support.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 10/26/2019 8:17:15 PM >


_____________________________

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RE: Unbeatable Allies? - 10/26/2019 8:23:26 PM   
brianreid

 

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The British have 0 support (i.e. no artillery or air support). The only unit is that lonely and insanely outnumbered British tank brigade. Take a look at the first attachment. It shows the Assault AP (222 to 15), the AT (221 to 19), the Support AP (128 to 0), the soft DF (104 to 5), the Armor DF (57 to 5) and the final net odds of 28.609 to 1 odds. Not only should that British Brigade be thoroughly defeated, it should be completely annihilated with those odds.

As a side note, I have tried this battle all the way down to "only" 10-1 odds, and no red density modifier, and still the result is the same, huge German losses, and tiny British losses. I am not sure, maybe the 22 Armored was staffed by Supermen.



< Message edited by brianreid -- 10/26/2019 8:42:25 PM >

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RE: Unbeatable Allies? - 10/26/2019 8:50:14 PM   
sPzAbt653


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The Br Bde has the support of the adjacent Inf Bde and AT unit [which has a bunch of the lethal SP 17 pdr's].

I believe that the Br Artillery would also be called in for support, you can check the Combat Reports [after battles] to verify. I don't use the Combat Planner because I find it to be inaccurate, or perhaps not accurate enough is a better description.

You are also attacking on a narrow front with no flanking bonus and the target is dug-in.

I use the Attack and Defense Display on the units, I know some feel that it is cheating but it only gives you an idea of what a units capabilities are. In TOAW the odds aren't really very important, but it's very important to match your AP and AT against your opponents. [I think that is good advice but on the other hand it may be why I am not such a good player]. In that respect I often do 'cheat' by having the Editor open so that I can check a units contents [but we can also check the after battle reports to determine this].

Best news is, I see that you have retreated that Bde, woohoo! However, I will tell you that flank is tougher to crack than the thin US line in the middle

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RE: Unbeatable Allies? - 10/26/2019 9:02:33 PM   
brianreid

 

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The British might be getting support, although it does not show on the Combat Planner. I agree the front is narrow (although it is 2 hexes, and not a single hex), and the target is not dug in. In fact, the defending unit is at 0% entrenchment. I agree that a flanking attack will certainly make things better. If odds doesn't matter that much, then that really is an issue. With most operational level board games, once an attacker gets above 8-1 odds, the defender is usually annihilated, with almost 0 friendly losses. The only thing I can think of is the British has one monster of a die roll modifier. I don't know. I would love to see behind the scenes how TOAW calculates the final casualties for this battle.

I did manage to lever that son of a gun out of that hex, but unfortunately I took abysmal losses doing that. I am probably better off trying to lever it out of position with some infantry units, and then use my armor units to exploit through the gap. I also agree that the thin middle is easier to break through. My plan is to break though from the north and the middle and then meet up around Wandre, deep in the Allied rear, pocketing large portions of the British and the Americans, using the so-called "small solution".

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RE: Unbeatable Allies? - 10/26/2019 9:17:38 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brianreid

The British have 0 support (i.e. no artillery or air support). The only unit is that lonely and insanely outnumbered British tank brigade. Take a look at the first attachment. It shows the Assault AP (222 to 15), the AT (221 to 19), the Support AP (128 to 0), the soft DF (104 to 5), the Armor DF (57 to 5) and the final net odds of 28.609 to 1 odds. Not only should that British Brigade be thoroughly defeated, it should be completely annihilated with those odds.

As a side note, I have tried this battle all the way down to "only" 10-1 odds, and no red density modifier, and still the result is the same, huge German losses, and tiny British losses. I am not sure, maybe the 22 Armored was staffed by Supermen.


The combat planner does not show the defender support (fog-of-war). You have to find that out from the combat results.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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RE: Unbeatable Allies? - 10/27/2019 8:27:26 AM   
sPzAbt653


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I'm seeing that the unit is dug-in, as seen below from the screen shot you posted.

Something else you can do when running up against a tough position is to attack with one or two of your units from both of those of those hexes, at Minimal or Limited Losses, for several rounds in order to get the target in a worse Supply and Readiness state, then when you get close to 70% of the turn used, hit the target with everything you have at Ignore Losses. That usually works although it will cost you a bit, at least you are thru in one turn. Beware if even this doesn't work, because in frustration you might be inclined to throw the computer out the window.




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RE: Unbeatable Allies? - 10/28/2019 8:02:08 AM   
StuccoFresco

 

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Sometimes it happens, though. I recall HQ units shrugging off Tank Brigades' assaults. It's frustrating.

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