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Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 6:45:31 AM   
jzardos


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I can't find out much information about what partisans can do. Just reduce supply? I don't like the partisan defense rules. Can we please just have a game that you don't have to micro manage partisan defense?

Just a thought ... that has been successful in other board games I've played. Make it more abstract. Just have a pool for the units and make levels of what is need to suppress partisans. All sorts of degrees and zones that can be done, but don't make us micro units.

thanks
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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 9:45:06 AM   
Aspirin


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They destroy rail lines. Watching A_gamer's videos he moves units into the hex partisans have just attacked. Does anyone know if this does anything ?

I'm in Aug 40 + have 10 hexes with damaged rail (France + Yugoslavia, which both still have lots of units there). The manual says you repair 2 rail per turn, so I hate to think how things will be when I get into Russia.

I really hope there isn't micro here, spending lots of time on partisans is just tiresome.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 10:54:28 AM   
Michael T


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IIRC partisans can't operate within 6 hexes of a Corp. So build a few small corp and deploy as required.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 11:14:17 AM   
karonagames


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That is not true.




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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 11:22:05 AM   
Cohen_slith

 

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I am quite puzzled too as to what the Partisans exactly do... and how to counter them.

Certainly there are no troops to scatter all around the place so I end up neglecting them entirely because:
A: They seem to do little to nothing besides reduce the hex supply and rail which is promptly repaired.
B: I've already far too few units.
C: Cannot cover anyhow each and every hex for Partisan's sake.

Frankly, I am fine as they're now - useless. Partisans were mostly useless if not for intel sake (in the scope of a corps sized game), and only did something meaningful -when- supplied in the case of Tito (and still took the beatings from regular anti partisan sweeps til pratically Germany was on the brink of collapse), or when liberation forces were at short distance (Warsaw, Paris, Naples, etc - all insurrections that took place only when there was a realistic change for imminent relief by regular troops).

Even in operations as Bagration or D-Day the Partisans acted in 'coordination' with the incoming regular forces (which were anyhow of such magnitudo compared to the opposition) that the partisan influence was non influential to the course of the events.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 11:39:48 AM   
gwgardner

 

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Some partisan units can appear, and they must be dealt with, or will start to tear through rail lines - especially critical in the East.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 12:03:01 PM   
Michael T


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I checked the manual. It's only the surrounding 6 hexes. So yeah, partisans are going to be very painful.

Seems they are OP.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 12:38:11 PM   
821Bobo


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But they only reduce supply so just cover one rail and no problem.
However personally I don't like the partisan rules. At this level there just need to be some garrison requirement, when met then no problem. To avoid all or nothing some attacks should occur even if garrison is met but only in late war.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 1:26:29 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

But they only reduce supply so just cover one rail and no problem.
However personally I don't like the partisan rules. At this level there just need to be some garrison requirement, when met then no problem. To avoid all or nothing some attacks should occur even if garrison is met but only in late war.


+1

Garrison rules would be much better. Without garrisons in place supply takes the hit. Just to show how out of whack partisans are at this scale "By the end of 1941, more than 2,000 partisan detachments (with more than 90,000 personnel) operated in German-occupied territories". Obviously as the war went on, this number increased.

But what this represents are units representing about 45 people per partisan group across all of Russia (90,000/2,000) So for these groups to have any real impact on a game of this scale is really not realistic. Just because most WWII games have partisans does not mean all of them should.

Only in Yugoslavia did the numbers get big enough to really impact a game of this scale. And then not until late in the war. "By late 1944, the total forces of the Partisans numbered 650,000 men and women organized in four field armies and 52 divisions, which engaged in conventional warfare. By April 1945, the Partisans numbered over 800,000"

A much better way (and maybe even easier from a programing point of view) would be to just reduce the amount or resources by X from Yugoslavia/Russia unless Y garrison is met. For both countries, the Axis would need to greatly increase their 'garrison' troops over the historical record since over the course of the war:

"The Soviet partisan activities was a strategic factor in the defeat of the German forces on the Soviet-German front. During the summer and autumn of 1942, when partisan warfare did not reach its highest peak, the German Army devoted about 10 percent of its overall strength in fighting partisans, including 15 regular and security divisions and 144 security and police battalions. At the same time, the total strength of German and Italian forces in North Africa was 12 divisions. The partisans made significant contributions to the war effort by interrupting German plans to exploit Soviet territories economically. German forces obtained only one-seventh of what they looted from other European countries. While about $1 billion worth of food and other products were expropriated from Soviet territories by the Germans, more than $26 billion worth of goods and services were extracted from other European countries."

Another thought would be to just have a production line item to 'produce' partisan points(?) since some effort was made to supply them from the actual war production. Then you could produce 'anti-partisans' points(?). With some ratio of partisan points to anti points determining supplies/resources reduction (or lack thereof)

Just some thoughts on different ways to handle this topic that fit the historical record a little better.

Bottom line is I'd much rather have partisans abstracted versus the way they are handled now.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 2:45:49 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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This is how it works.

Partisan hits can't take place in ZoC. Players should cover rail junctions and production with small corps. Rail gets auto fixed at a rate of 2 per turn. So if there is a line of 3 damaged rail 2 get fixed.

Without garrisoning anything you will generate some losses in production and supply. The amount will be small but consequential over time.

Any country with scorched earth will sometimes get a partisan unit instead of just a rail damage hit.

When developing this I had to find a balance between it totally and ridiculously cutting of an entire front and having some responsibility in garrisoning vs partisans. This was the balance. I have seen too many games where 2 partisan units basically blow up a front. And I have seen games where all the player does is annoyingly chase around partisan units for a fair amount of his play. This allows a passive management in most cases while forcing a player to put some strategy into partisans in Russia (has scorched earth)

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 5:43:52 PM   
jzardos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

IIRC partisans can't operate within 6 hexes of a Corp. So build a few small corp and deploy as required.


This is exactly the kind of micro I don't want to do. Whack a mole by putting units all over the map.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 5:49:42 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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You don't have to wack a mole rail damage... It repairs itself. You just need to garrison key junctions.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 7:36:34 PM   
MOS96B2P


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

You just need to garrison key junctions.


Generally speaking I like the way partisan activity is portrayed so far. I'm still learning. Above you recommend garrisoning key railroad junctions. So far, in my game, the partisans always hit railroads in hexes with NO railroad junction. I just checked my combat log which shows four partisan attacks (activity). All four are on hexes with no railway junction. I will watch for it from now on but it seems partisans hit railways everywhere but at junctions. Or maybe they hit both junction and non-junction railroads hexes. They are definitely destroying non-junction railroads.

Those division size elements would be more useful if they had ZOC vs partisans. Maybe there is a play balance reason or something that the divisions have no ZOC. Just ZOC vs partisans and nobody else would be cool.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 7:45:31 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

IIRC partisans can't operate within 6 hexes of a Corp. So build a few small corp and deploy as required.


In my game Poland is currently stuffed with German units, but partisans are hitting rails very close to the units (I want to say I've seen adjacent attacks, but not sure. Within 2 hexes for sure though), so if you're right about how the rule should work, it's not working as intended.

Jim

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 7:53:34 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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I'll put it on the list...

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 8:07:07 PM   
Michael T


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I hate having to play anti partisan commander. The game should not be about that. Garrison rules are better. If garrison is not met then bad stuff happens. Like rail breaks and/or production loss. Maybe an odd counter for the Soviets. But that's it.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 8:31:09 PM   
abulbulian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I hate having to play anti partisan commander. The game should not be about that. Garrison rules are better. If garrison is not met then bad stuff happens. Like rail breaks and/or production loss. Maybe an odd counter for the Soviets. But that's it.


Yes, 100% agree. So many ways to abstract this concept. I've helped develop some board games that use partisan zones to put troops/resources. In this game it would be not that large a lift to add a partisan zone tab (maybe in the build section). Using production, manpower, logistics, etc. to offset partisan activities. Some kind of a ratio that if not met would mean high level of partisan activity as levels of resources are lower than needed.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 11:33:21 PM   
sol_invictus


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I don't really mind how it is now but maybe add a buildable Support Unit that the player can place like the Flak and Coastal Defense units.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/26/2019 11:33:24 PM   
Jestre

 

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Yeah as soon as I saw the mechanics of the partisans I went into editor and turned off Partisans in each country... Just a pain in the butt I don't need. The garrison mechanics of SC work much better for me.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/27/2019 12:09:06 AM   
Cohen_slith

 

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Just look at Partisans as experience.
But yes, plenty of games where one has to chase the goose (partisan) around, and that is silly.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/27/2019 2:09:15 AM   
Alvaro Sousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sol_invictus

I don't really mind how it is now but maybe add a buildable Support Unit that the player can place like the Flak and Coastal Defense units.


You can build AA and add it to any hex. An HQ can rail it out.

You can put a coastal defense on a land tile that is better defense vs attackers from a beach.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/27/2019 4:30:26 AM   
sol_invictus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa


quote:

ORIGINAL: sol_invictus

I don't really mind how it is now but maybe add a buildable Support Unit that the player can place like the Flak and Coastal Defense units.


You can build AA and add it to any hex. An HQ can rail it out.

You can put a coastal defense on a land tile that is better defense vs attackers from a beach.



I am sorry I wasn't clear. I am aware of the Coastal Defense and AA unit functions; I was just offering a suggestion for a possible additional Support Unit to deal with Partisans.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/27/2019 10:59:16 AM   
Cohen_slith

 

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Hmm about partisans now that I've reached Russia - sadly it is running after partisans again.

Simply there is not enough logistic points to cover partisans, and the beaches, and the front, and the rail damage skyrockets over time.

There should be a partisan on / off setting for Multiplayer games, like Diplomacy option on / off too that are visible before to join a challenge at least.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/27/2019 3:21:00 PM   
Toby42


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Hmm about partisans now that I've reached Russia - sadly it is running after partisans again.

Simply there is not enough logistic points to cover partisans, and the beaches, and the front, and the rail damage skyrockets over time.

There should be a partisan on / off setting for Multiplayer games, like Diplomacy option on / off too that are visible before to join a challenge at least.


I agree on the partisans!

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/27/2019 4:33:51 PM   
Cohen_slith

 

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And I got here as well the whole Army Group cut out of supply by partisans!

Partisan needs reworking, and a severe nerfing down of them. (among other changes I feel the game needs for the sake of being playable long term on Multiplayer especially)


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RE: Partisans??? - 10/27/2019 4:44:46 PM   
821Bobo


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Divisions doesn't have ZOC, you must garrison with corps.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/27/2019 5:06:42 PM   
Cohen_slith

 

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Corps are needed to fight ... not to garrison vs partisans.
If you're saying Axis needs 20+ infantry corps to garrison vs Partisan, only for Russia (God forbid to think of all other countries) and people think it's right ... I am simply gobsmacked.

It's just the mechanic that is wrong. Besides - it is partisan hunt again, which is something I am awfully allergic to as game mechanic.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/27/2019 5:22:53 PM   
821Bobo


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Yes thats the rules. Don't shoot the messenger.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4706067

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/27/2019 5:36:22 PM   
Cohen_slith

 

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Not shooting you - just saying current rules must be changed.
And I do not know from where these statistics came from - but partisans historically were netting the effect of a mosquito sting on a human, to Germany.

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RE: Partisans??? - 10/27/2019 8:08:44 PM   
bjfagan

 

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I need to throw in my two cents and say the partisans are way too strong. I am in December 1941 with attacks all over the place and even 7 partisan divisions appearing on the map in Russia. The attack frequency needs to be lowered and then increased over time.

Then when I send infantry units to attack these partisan divisions I am taking losses. There is no way that partisan units could be causing severe casualties to German combat units. These partisans should disappear once attacked. They are only a nuisance at this strategic level and definitely this early in the war. Partisans should not be a battlefield liability to regular combat units.

Maybe later in the war partisans can draw some blood but against combat infantry it should be very difficult. I had a Hungarian division attack a partisan division and took 4 hits without hurting the partisan unit. Ok, Hungarians may not be the best troops but against partisans they would be and especially in December '41.

As for the rule (or even the suggestion) of having to send infantry corps all around Europe just to chase down partisans is ridiculous and not historical. Historically, regiments and battalions chased partisans. Not entire divisions of 10,000 to 20,000 men were sent to hunt down one group of partisans, unless that division was spread out over a large area chasing multiple groups. And no way were entire corps devoted to this.

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