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Calling all Dutchmen - 10/19/2019 7:09:53 AM   
warspite1


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I am trying to work out the fates of the Dutch submarines in WWII (particularly (but not limited to) those that served in the Far East).

My usual trusty sources have thrown up something of a mis-match in their recording, namely:

Conways All The Worlds Fighting Ships 1922 - 1946
Rohwer's Chronology of the War at Sea
U-boat.net

I hate to think that Conway's could be wrong but it is looking that way at present.....

Does anyone know a truly trusted source for Dutch submarines of WWII please?

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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/19/2019 10:11:16 AM   
Trugrit


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You should be able to find that on the web.

Many Dutch subs were renamed.

How about this source:
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/boats/boats_service.htm



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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/19/2019 3:06:38 PM   
Kull


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The guys who run uboat.net are amazing. So much more than German u-boats:





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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/19/2019 5:28:33 PM   
jagsdomain

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I am trying to work out the fates of the Dutch submarines in WWII (particularly (but not limited to) those that served in the Far East).

My usual trusty sources have thrown up something of a mis-match in their recording, namely:

Conways All The Worlds Fighting Ships 1922 - 1946
Rohwer's Chronology of the War at Sea
U-boat.net

I hate to think that Conway's could be wrong but it is looking that way at present.....

Does anyone know a truly trusted source for Dutch submarines of WWII please?

Did Janes have anything about it?

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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/19/2019 6:38:20 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


You should be able to find that on the web.

Many Dutch subs were renamed.

How about this source:
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/boats/boats_service.htm

warspite1

Well yes, I can find anything on the net. That doesn't mean its going to be right - which is why I was hoping someone knew of a trusty site.

The link you give looks pretty good - thank-you - and so I've used that in addition to my usual 3 sources named previously.

Difficult to know who to believe but it looks like I am left with four anomalies in the four KV and KX classes:

KXI - On balance I believe decommissioned in 1945
KXII - Three different outcomes - sunk in Feb 42, Scuttled in Mar 42 or decommissioned 1944
KXIII - Either broken up in 1945 or scuttled in Mar 42
KXVIII - On balance I believe scuttled in Mar 42

So if anyone knows more please let me know thanks.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/19/2019 9:28:42 PM   
Lovejoy


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The O-19 ran aground on a reef in July of 1945, and had to be scuttled by the USS Cod.

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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/19/2019 11:11:54 PM   
ushakov

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
KXII - Three different outcomes - sunk in Feb 42, Scuttled in Mar 42 or decommissioned 1944

It's the last one, KXII was sold after the war and used as a seaside tourist attraction in Australia for a few years before scrapping:

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/manly-daily/beached-former-sea-warhorse-briefly-an-exciting-playground/news-story/a9981a2f786f65fb9f9a582168b8bbe7


< Message edited by ushakov -- 10/19/2019 11:12:19 PM >

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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/20/2019 5:26:46 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ushakov

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
KXII - Three different outcomes - sunk in Feb 42, Scuttled in Mar 42 or decommissioned 1944

It's the last one, KXII was sold after the war and used as a seaside tourist attraction in Australia for a few years before scrapping:

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/manly-daily/beached-former-sea-warhorse-briefly-an-exciting-playground/news-story/a9981a2f786f65fb9f9a582168b8bbe7

warspite1

Excellent - thank-you! Although this means that both Conways and Chronology of the War at Sea are wrong .

That is something of a disappointment..... although it would appear they've simply confused KXII with KXIII.

Conways was also wrong about KXVIII, but War at Sea agrees with U-boat.net and dutchsubmarines.com which is why I'm going with scuttled in March 1942.

War at Sea don't appear to be incorrect about KXI - they simply don't mention her fate - so but the other three appear to agree she was decommissioned/broken up in 1945.

Bit of a shocker to find my two 'bibles' wanting


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/20/2019 5:58:57 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/21/2019 8:55:05 AM   
fcooke

 

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I don't have my Conways to hand, but doesn't it also refer to an non-existant IJN CV and the IJN BCs that the Alaskas were built to counter? I think it was written so close to the end of WW2 that a bunch of stuff was not quite as accurate as it could be. Still a great tome. Now I have to go fetch it and see if my recollection is correct.

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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/22/2019 12:44:13 PM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I don't have my Conways to hand, but doesn't it also refer to an non-existant IJN CV and the IJN BCs that the Alaskas were built to counter? I think it was written so close to the end of WW2 that a bunch of stuff was not quite as accurate as it could be. Still a great tome. Now I have to go fetch it and see if my recollection is correct.


I think it says, IIRC, the Alaska CBs were built to over-counter a proposed IJN large cruiser class. Their design was not a secret, and the IJN moved on to an even larger "BC" design. Which was never built.

The Alaskas, it could be well argued, defeated their proposed opponent on the drawing board. They were also superior to the German panzerschiffe, and I would suggest superior to the Scharnhorst class in everything bar underwater protection.

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Ian R

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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/22/2019 9:42:47 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I don't have my Conways to hand, but doesn't it also refer to an non-existant IJN CV and the IJN BCs that the Alaskas were built to counter? I think it was written so close to the end of WW2 that a bunch of stuff was not quite as accurate as it could be. Still a great tome. Now I have to go fetch it and see if my recollection is correct.


I think it says, IIRC, the Alaska CBs were built to over-counter a proposed IJN large cruiser class. Their design was not a secret, and the IJN moved on to an even larger "BC" design. Which was never built.

The Alaskas, it could be well argued, defeated their proposed opponent on the drawing board. They were also superior to the German panzerschiffe, and I would suggest superior to the Scharnhorst class in everything bar underwater protection.

The Yamato Class figured into this. At the time Japan started on them the naval treaties set the max standard displacement for a BB at 35,000 tons. The Japanese had to buy much more steel and other materials to build the 63,000 ton Yamatos, but wanted to keep their size a secret. They passed a naval budget that included three X 27,000 ton BCs with 12" guns to account for the extra steel needed for the three planned Yamatos (35K tons + 27 K tons = 62K tons).

So the Intel the US was working from was the naval budget and some phony drawings of the planned BCs when in reality the Japanese never intended to build those. By the time the US got some genuine sightings of the Yamatos and figured out that there were no BCs, the Alaska class were well advanced. Since the Alaskas were very good AA escorts for the carrier groups the first two were completed.

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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/23/2019 12:46:19 AM   
fcooke

 

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Thanks BB - I have never heard of that subterfuge before. Alaska class were expensive critters, mostly because of the new design 12 inchers. Nothing against the Alaska class, but finishing off the other two Iowas would likely have been more cost effective - but that is hindsight.

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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/23/2019 9:07:32 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Thanks BB - I have never heard of that subterfuge before. Alaska class were expensive critters, mostly because of the new design 12 inchers. Nothing against the Alaska class, but finishing off the other two Iowas would likely have been more cost effective - but that is hindsight.


The Illinois and Kentucky hulls were launched to clear the slips for Essex class CVs. Alaska and Guam were built privately at New York Shipbuilding; the two canned Iowas were constructed/suspended at Naval yards.

_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

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RE: Calling all Dutchmen - 10/25/2019 9:18:19 AM   
Dutch_slith


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quote:



KXI - On balance I believe decommissioned in 1945
KXII - Three different outcomes - sunk in Feb 42, Scuttled in Mar 42 or decommissioned 1944
KXIII - Either broken up in 1945 or scuttled in Mar 42
KXVIII - On balance I believe scuttled in Mar 42



K XI decommissioned on April 10th, 1945
K XII decommissioned on May 8th, 1944
K XIII decommissioned on January 6th, 1942

K XVIII scuttled March 2nd, 1942 (Soerabaja)

Sources: Ik nader ongezien, 1997

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