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AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE"

 
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AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 1:00:13 AM   
pfg1701

 

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I can’t find this issue directly addressed elsewhere so I’m bringing it up here.

Attached is a screen shot of 37mm AT gun with a clear shot at a Panzer IIIL. As you can see, the distance is 28 meters, the green line indicates a direct shot, and, both the gun and the tank appear to be on the same elevation level. On its face, this would appear (at least to me) to be a perfect shot at the less armored rear of an enemy tank. The gun, however, refuses to shoot. As you can see from the Unit Panel, there is a “STEEP ANGLE” -this despite, as noted, there is no elevation difference between shooter and shootee.

I just started playing this game and it has a great deal of potential. But it’s become extremely frustrating. I‘ve been playing the Campaign game and I’m on my fourth battle. But in the last three battles I’ve played using AT guns, I’ve been completely unable to get them to fire with any reliability or predictability. In every case, no matter where I put these things, they repeatedly and inexplicably register unable to fire because of “STEEP ANGLE”.

Is this a bug? If not, what are the rules here. How is there any way to tell at setup when AT guns will actually shoot at an enemy tank should it roll into direct line of sight?


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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 1:27:40 AM   
budd


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Did you get the latest update? It was supposed to be addressed in the last update according to this post.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4699560

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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 6:18:54 AM   
ComradeP

 

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According to the patch notes, the patch should fix the issue for vehicle vs. vehicle combat.

There's no mention of a fix for AT gun vs. vehicle combat.

I'm using the latest patch and AT guns and tanks don't fire at each-other at close range.

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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 10:58:39 AM   
headcount_slith

 

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I'm still seeing occasional targeting issues in AFV vs AFV combat. The attached image shows a Sherman refusing to fire at a tracked StuG because of "wrong facing".

I moved the Sherman in front of the StuG and it still wouldn't fire. Neither would the StuG (it kept flicking from "aiming" to "firing").




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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 11:02:53 AM   
budd


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I'm referring to the "steep angle" thing as reported here. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4697490. Post 9.

How close you figure? I've seen them fire at around 180m, never had an occasion for them to fire closer.



_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 5
RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 11:18:04 AM   
budd


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I've seen the wrong facing thing, your right though it's doesn't happen every time I've had tanks bang away at each other as close as 60m, of course they missed a little more then I was comfortable with but they did engage. This was before the patch.

Haven't played much with the new patch yet.

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 6
RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 12:55:24 PM   
pfg1701

 

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As far patches, "Steep Angle" and AT guns vs tanks: I play the game through Steam. So I count on Steam to update with all the latest patches. So,on that specific issue, the questions are:

1- Is this a bug?
2- If so, was it fixed by a program patch?
3- And, if so, is Steam really up-to-date with its updates as it claims?

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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 12:58:04 PM   
zakblood


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steam uses the latest version, as long as you install as admin and run steam and the game as admin, then yes, unless you take it off default, the game will be the latest version on steam

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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 4:30:49 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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The fix to reduce 'steep angle' issues in the last update also applies to AT guns. If your game main screen says 1.0.1 then you have it.

Steep angle should only occur when the gun can't physically elevate or depress to hit the target. Usually slopes and/or elevation differences have to be involved as most weapons have a reasonable range of elevation. If you have a case that looks wrong a screenshot would be helpful.


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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 5:15:10 PM   
pfg1701

 

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Steve,
Could you please re-verify that update 1.0.1 also applies to U.S. AT guns. I checked my version and I’m running version 1.0.1
So, my original question with which I started this thread remains unanswered.

“Is this a bug? If not, what are the rules here. How is there any way to tell at setup when AT guns will actually shoot at an enemy tank should it roll into direct line of sight?”

Note on the screen shot there is not elevation difference between the AT gun and its target.





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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 5:24:49 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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Yes the change in 1.0.1 applies to AT guns.

The gun appears to be on a downward slope and the tank is slightly higher. The US 37mm AT gun can elevate 15 degrees. I'll have to reproduce the exact conditions to check but it doesn't look obviously wrong in this case. I suspect if you roll the gun forward a few meters it will be able to shoot.




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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 5:28:05 PM   
headcount_slith

 

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I'm still getting the occasional "steep angle" situation. The picture shows one from today on Marigny. The Sherman refused to fire. Eventually "steep angle" turned to "wrong facing" and the Panzer turned and killed the Sherman




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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 6:02:50 PM   
ComradeP

 

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As mentioned in my impressions thread, I got this situation with the latest patch.



I moved the AT guns back and forth, but they fired neither here nor at the Meftah objective.

Given the restricted camera controls, it's difficult to estimate if it's due to the gun elevation being limited.

Even if the AT guns were somehow at a steep angle each time, it doesn't explain why the Panzer doesn't fire.

As far as I can tell, the Steep Angle issue most certainly wasn't solved with the patch.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 10/15/2019 6:03:14 PM >


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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 6:45:35 PM   
budd


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Damn, that some point blank range for all those shots. Those don't look right.

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 14
RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 6:46:57 PM   
budd


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Also, not sure the line should be green if theres a firing problem.

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Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 15
RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/15/2019 8:18:08 PM   
pfg1701

 

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Steve,

Thanks for looking into the up-date application to AT guns.

But, if I can ask again:

How is there any way to tell at setup when AT guns will actually shoot at an enemy tank should it roll into direct line of sight?

In other words, how can we tell at set-up what a gun's kill zone actually is, if it's not just line of sight?

Proper placement of AT guns at set-up is critical to their having any value at all, other than as an addition to your own casualty count. An actual gunner would know what his gun's zone of fire is when he sets it up, including both line of sight and any shot angle impairments. We, as game players, need to have the same ability. If the game program cannot incorporate a method to easily identify a gun's actual kill zone, then the "Steep Angle" restriction should be removed from the game altogether. As I understand how the game works now, "Steep Angle" doesn't add realism, it only adds an extremely frustrating pain in the butt that diminishes the fun of playing the game.

Thanks for your attention to this issue.

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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/16/2019 10:16:37 AM   
wodin


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I'm still getting this despite an apparent fix.

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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/16/2019 11:42:52 AM   
reynt

 

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I also get angry when these things happen. Solution please.

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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/16/2019 8:49:40 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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Thanks for the additional examples. I'll review this and look at how to make it clear and less frustrating.

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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/16/2019 10:00:19 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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ComradeP,

I wasn't able to reproduce any 'Steep Angle' issue with the locations you show in your screenshot. If you see this happening again a saved game would be very helpful. I will continue to investigate the issue in the meantime.








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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/16/2019 10:07:43 PM   
GrdAdmiral

 

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Are halftracks accuracy patched? The American howitzer halftrack seems to shot either to high or to low. It feels like I’m just shooting the mountains or the sky. The anti-tank gun half tracks also seem to either shoot the ground or shoot the sky.

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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/16/2019 10:20:50 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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Hi pfg1701,

I tried to reproduce the situation shown in your screenshot but didn't see the same issue - the AT gun fired and knocked out the Panzer III immediatey.

I will continue looking into this but if you encounter it again a saved game file would be much appreciated.







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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/16/2019 10:37:44 PM   
budd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire

ComradeP,

I wasn't able to reproduce any 'Steep Angle' issue with the locations you show in your screenshot. If you see this happening again a saved game would be very helpful. I will continue to investigate the issue in the meantime.








but did either unit fire, ComradeP mentioned they just stared at each other

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to Steve McClaire)
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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/17/2019 12:30:23 PM   
headcount_slith

 

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I think I may have just witnessed a steep angle situation involving an AT gun. Unfortunately the gun crew broke moments after the pic was taken so I couldn't study it for long.

The Pak 36 had fired several shots at the Sherman at a similar range (the Sherman then moved or turned slightly which may have created appropriate conditions)




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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/17/2019 3:06:50 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: budd
but did either unit fire, ComradeP mentioned they just stared at each other


Yes they both fired. You can see from the unit action icons that one gun is aiming to fire a second round and the other is reloading after firing. The gun dead ahead of the tank is slightly slower since they are busy ducking the tank bow MG fire.


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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/17/2019 4:23:18 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Odd. Though the battle became rather glitched at the end, the AT gun at Meftah didn't fire either at the start.

Just to be sure: you're using the latest public build for these tests, not a test version that might include a fix for the issue that isn't in a public build?

I'll try a clean install with patches applied before I start the game, maybe that will solve the issue.

The saves for that battle are regrettably already overwritten, so I can't provide a saved game.

The strangest thing was that the Panzer stared at the AT guns, but fired at infantry units normally with both cannon and MG's.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 10/17/2019 4:28:02 PM >


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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/17/2019 5:31:06 PM   
headcount_slith

 

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I've run a series of AT gun vs. tank tests and haven't seen any "steep angle" issues yet apart from the one mentioned above.

What I have seen is a few examples of AT guns missing close-range targets over and over again. The attached pic shows a Pak 36 that used its entire ammo supply firing at the nearby AC and missed (the shots seemed too high) every time.




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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/17/2019 5:40:05 PM   
headcount_slith

 

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Hmmm. Having running the save again, I did end up with a steep angle situation (AT gun not firing at AC)




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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/17/2019 5:45:49 PM   
headcount_slith

 

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The savegame:

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RE: AT guns and "STEEP ANGLE" - 10/17/2019 8:12:22 PM   
headcount_slith

 

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This is bizarre. When I turn my Panther's tail to the AT gun, counter-intuitively the AT gun stops firing ("bad shot"). When I turn back, the firing starts again. I have a savegame if you're interested.




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