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RFI: Guns for the Queens

 
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RFI: Guns for the Queens - 10/13/2019 10:41:08 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16786
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary had a 120 man naval gunnery detachment (each) during WW2. I think they had multiple 6 inch, as well as heavy, medium and light AA guns.  I cannot find a listingfor either.  If you have one, please advise.

These ships had full load displacements of 72,000 and 77,400 long tons in 1941.  This is not reflected in any variant of AE I have seen.  They had an "operating speed" (cruising speed in British merchantship parlance of 29 knots), but I credit QE with 30 knots because she set the transatlantic record in1936 at that speed - a record unbroken until the S.S. United States in 1954.  Actually, both probablybroke it - but wartime cruises don't count.  Technically QE had a full speed of 32 knots and QM 33knots, but for game purposes I think we must use 33 for QE (so full speed yields a different number of hexes in one impulse - this is under test).  They are the fastest ships in the game interms of sustained movement.

Both ships were modified in 1942, probably got Type 273 Radar (surface search for large ships),and certainly about tripled their troop capacity. QM could carry 16,000, QE 15,000.  Slots 2488 and2489 (upgrading to 2468 and 2367 respectively as of the next update).

< Message edited by el cid again -- 10/13/2019 10:42:30 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: RFI: Guns for the Queens additional - 10/14/2019 6:50:43 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16786
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Turns out we must assign both Queens a cruising speed of 29 knots (which is, officially, their"service speed") to get them to have a different full speed and cruising speed in hexes per 12 hournaval movement impulse.  All values from 30 to 33 knots produce 9 hexes per phase.  29 knotsproduces 8 knots per phase.  So we should rate them as 33 and 29, and 32 and 29, both yielding 9 hexes full speed, 8 hexes cruising speed.

Additional on guns: From Warrior Queens text we learn that indeed both had (at least one) six inch gun
(mounted aft if memory serves), "three inch AA guns", 40 mm guns and 20 mm guns.
All we need to know is numbers and where mounted.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 10/14/2019 1:56:37 PM >

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 2
Still more - 10/14/2019 1:55:58 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16786
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		From Warrior Queens text we learn that indeed both had (at least one) six inch gun
(mounted aft if memory serves), "three inch AA guns", 40 mm guns and 20 mm guns.
All we need to know is numbers and where mounted.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 3
RE: Still more - 10/14/2019 9:04:42 PM   
jmolyson

 

Posts: 150
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		Old naval guns had been stored for possible use since 1918 in British ports. In the Second World War the objective was to equip each merchant ship with a low-angle gun as defense against surfaced submarines or enemy armed merchant raiders. These were likely installed on single mounts at the stern of the Queens. The low-angle guns were typically in the 3-inch to 6-inch range (75–150 mm) depending on the size of the ship. The Queens would probably have received the largest gun available, the 6-inch BL. (1)

Additionally, a high-angle medium caliber gun and rifle-calibre machine guns were installed for air defense. Judging from other merchant vessels, the medium caliber high angle weapon would be mounted on the bow. The smaller caliber anti-aircraft weapons (up to 20mm) would have been installed around the larger guns at the bow and stern and along both sides of the ship. (1)

Rifle-caliber machine guns were augmented or replaced by Oerlikon 20 mm cannon as they became available. The high-angle QF 12pdr Mk V mount was the most common anti-aircraft gun but later ships sometimes received Bofors 40 mm guns. (1)

3,400 ships had been armed by the end of 1940;[12] and all ships were armed by 1943. (2)

(1) Hague, Arnold (2000). The Allied Convoy System 1939–1945. Annapolis, MD: Naval Institute Press, page 101.

(2) Middlebrook, Martin (1976). Convoy. William Morrow and Company, page 30

(3) Reference 1 and 2 quoted in in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensively_equipped_merchant_ship


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Joe

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RE: Still more - 10/14/2019 10:15:15 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2071
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		Ship modelers know where to find the details:

quote:

I'm looking for information on the armament fitted to the QE when she was used as a troop ship. The Anatomy of the Ship volume on the Queen Mary has a drawing of the armament she carried, but I have not been able to find information for the QE.


If you hunt around, it should be possible to find a pdf of that book.

quote:


You should pick up a copy of "Queen Elizabeth at War" by Chris Konings.

While not as detailed as the AOTS books from a modeling perspective, the photo-coverage is pretty good, and a good start for pulling together her armament fits. Keep in mind that armament on both QM and QE increased throughout the war so you'll want to pick a speciffic period to model.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=konings&sts=t&tn=queen+elizabeth&x=59&y=14


Apparently the QE book doesn't have the same level of detail, but it's likely they were similarly armed.

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(in reply to jmolyson)
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RE: Still more - 10/14/2019 10:27:48 PM   
jmolyson

 

Posts: 150
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		Both were docked along with Normandie in New York for conversion to troop ships. So it's likely their armament would have been similar.



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RE: RFI: Guns for the Queens: Layout - 10/15/2019 3:48:26 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16786
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		From the diagrams at the Queen Mary Museum, provided by Robert Ready, we have a most unusual armament layout.  These ships obviously were only intended to run from anything they ran into.

1 x 6 inch gun right aft2 x 3 inch (probably 20 cwt which is either 100 pounds or 112 pounds - called short cwt and long cwt -I am not sure which applies to naval gunnery) singles placed aft and spaced so both may fire port or starboard;  they are higher in elevation than the 6 inch and fire over it

2 x twin 40 mm Bofors Mark 1 placed similarly to the 3 inch, but at a still higher elevation, so they fire over the 3 inch guns and over the 6 inch gun

5 single 20 mm Oerlikon guns - 3 on the centerline and two side by side at four different elevations - one each on the decks for 6 inch, 3 inch and 40 mm - and one at a still higher deck.  The side by side guns could fire on almost all targets on both beams and so are also classified as rear. [There is no way to modelthat properly and let them both fire astern as well, their main purpose].

"Positions" for two more 20 mm guns on the highest gun deck, which also has a centerline 20 mm.  These are classified as Port and Starboard, IF mounted (apparently this was not normally done) side mounts. In fact, both could also engage most after targets, but not all, and the same for targets on the opposite beam. There is no way to model this well, so I settled for mounting them as side guns and only for the 1942 upgrade form of the ships.

It is not certain that Queen Elizabeth used the exact same configuration.  But her naval gunnery detachmentwas exactly the same size (120 men) and it is quite likely it was the same gun count in a similar configuration.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 10/15/2019 3:53:23 PM >

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Post #: 7
RE: Still more - 10/15/2019 3:55:03 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16786
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Likely the 1940 armament was indeed machine guns vice the 20 mm. Also, it is fairly likely there were no
Bofors twins available. Still working on this start of AE (1941) version.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmolyson

Old naval guns had been stored for possible use since 1918 in British ports. In the Second World War the objective was to equip each merchant ship with a low-angle gun as defense against surfaced submarines or enemy armed merchant raiders. These were likely installed on single mounts at the stern of the Queens. The low-angle guns were typically in the 3-inch to 6-inch range (75–150 mm) depending on the size of the ship. The Queens would probably have received the largest gun available, the 6-inch BL. (1)

Additionally, a high-angle medium caliber gun and rifle-calibre machine guns were installed for air defense. Judging from other merchant vessels, the medium caliber high angle weapon would be mounted on the bow. The smaller caliber anti-aircraft weapons (up to 20mm) would have been installed around the larger guns at the bow and stern and along both sides of the ship. (1)

Rifle-caliber machine guns were augmented or replaced by Oerlikon 20 mm cannon as they became available. The high-angle QF 12pdr Mk V mount was the most common anti-aircraft gun but later ships sometimes received Bofors 40 mm guns. (1)

3,400 ships had been armed by the end of 1940;[12] and all ships were armed by 1943. (2)

(1) Hague, Arnold (2000). The Allied Convoy System 1939–1945. Annapolis, MD: Naval Institute Press, page 101.

(2) Middlebrook, Martin (1976). Convoy. William Morrow and Company, page 30

(3) Reference 1 and 2 quoted in in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensively_equipped_merchant_ship



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