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Simulating China and the Dutch

 
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Simulating China and the Dutch - 10/13/2019 5:25:10 PM   
stljeffbb

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 2/10/2004
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Hello everyone....this thread might not be what you think it is!

Yes, we pretty much all know about the issues with China. I think I have fairly well balanced it in my current homebrew edition by taking out a Japanese division and adding every Chinese Army possible right at the beginning.

Look here to some partial guidance to what China had in 1941 http://www.niehorster.org/018_china/41_cha-00-000.htm

By the way, it seems that the terms "Corps" and "Army" may be interchangeable, and in reality these units were close to "Western" division size.

With that said, I wondered what it would be like to:

1) Strip out ALL US, British, and Dutch units from the game...EVERYTHING!
2) Actually do the Chinese justice, but also include the Japanese...historical as possible, and air groups too.
3) SIMULATE!

...it would be kind of like a mini version of things, but it is another "what if" situation, if Japan just attacked China. I know, historically very unlikely.

Another idea (I think this one has been probably thought of...well the other one too!) would be to have Japan attack just British and Dutch interests, and maybe simulating an increased lend/lease from the USA, but not full blown involvement. Or perhaps a later entry into WW2 by the USA, but I'm not sure how that could be modeled.

Oh well, just thinking!

Regards,

Jeff

< Message edited by stljeffbb -- 10/13/2019 5:26:58 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Simulating China and the Dutch - 10/14/2019 10:42:27 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5289
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Another idea (I think this one has been probably thought of...well the other one too!) would be to have Japan attack just British and Dutch interests, and maybe simulating an increased lend/lease from the USA, but not full blown involvement. Or perhaps a later entry into WW2 by the USA, but I'm not sure how that could be modeled.


I have been saying for years that the only realistic path for the Japanese to achieve a (minor) victory was *not* to do the Pearl Harbor strike, but instead invade the DEI only (at first). This would almost certainly have brought a declaration of war from the U.S., which was already incensed by incursions into China and the takeover of French Indochina. However, the mobilization of U.S. industry would not have been possible at the historical speed and scale. There would have been much less popular support, since it could be argued that America rather than Japan had fired the first shot.

Note that in WWI, it was a full year before American troops entered ground combat, compared with 8 months for WWII. Likewise, there were no American tanks or combat aircraft engaged in WWI, as compared to the jaw-dropping production levels achieved in WWII. I think cutting U. S. factories of all types in half would be a fair way to model the no-Pearl scenario.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to stljeffbb)
Post #: 2
RE: Simulating China and the Dutch - 10/19/2019 5:53:12 PM   
Randomizer

 

Posts: 1244
Joined: 6/28/2008
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The premise behind a China-Dutch East Indies-Malaysia only campaign sounds vaguely interesting but I do not see it making a particularly interesting game.

quote:

This would almost certainly have brought a declaration of war from the U.S


I cannot understand why Congress would take America to war to save the colonies of Great Britain and The Netherlands. A Japanese declaration of war on the colonial powers to "free the people of Asia from foreign domination" or some such tripe may well have generated some support in certain quarters of US domestic politics. Otherwise it would likely see another round of "If Japan does not stop its aggression immediately the United States shall have to demand that they stop their aggression yet again" style of diplomacy. Roosevelt's oil embargo was the tipping point and nothing else short of war was available to use as a cudgel with which to beat Japan into compliance. Without Pearl Harbor there is no direct US involvement and without America there is no Pacific War, at least not in 1941-42.

For Japan, acquisition of the NEA and Malaysia get them very close to the autarky desired by the ruling junta.

America was pragmatic enough to work with a Japanese hegemony in East Asia and with the US congressional election cycle ramping up in 1942, much of what happened next would depend on how the isolationists did in the new congress.

Just $0.02 CAD.

-C

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 3
RE: Simulating China and the Dutch - 10/20/2019 9:43:33 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5289
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Roosevelt's oil embargo was the tipping point and nothing else short of war was available to use as a cudgel with which to beat Japan into compliance.


That is exactly why there would have been a declaration of war. Both the U.S. government and the general American public were outraged by the Japanese expansion in China and French Indochina (and atrocities such as the Rape of Nanjing). Diplomatic negotiations had been going on for years, with the U.S. demanding that the Japanese withdraw from most of China, and the Japanese military (who effectively controlled Japan) wanting to expand even further. If the Japanese had seized the DEI, it would have been seen as kicking the Dutch when they were down. Since the Japanese would then have had an oil supply, the choice would have been between declaring war and doing nothing. The latter would not have been acceptable.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 4
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