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Air recon too OP

 
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Air recon too OP - 10/10/2019 11:42:59 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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I think currently in the game the air recon is too superior. In generally and especially against the enemy air bases.
By the air recon it is possible not only to get 100% info about number of the enemy planes,their models/types,overall number of planes and how many of them are ready , but also possible to find out the names of AB and the air units there (really? = ).

My thoughts about what factors should affects the air recon results:
1) Weather. During blizzard,snow,mud(rains) turns should be less the missions and less the result quality.
2) Terrain. In the clear terrain the unit could be spotted much easier. Currently it's easy enough to spot the units in the some others terrains too.
3) Size of the enemy unit. The large formation could be spotted much easier and vice versa.
4) Let's call it "maskirovka". The special actions/events that aims to hide out the units. The success of the many operations was achieved by the surprise of that fact that the units was not spotted. But in the game currently its absolutely impossible – the both sides need only some number of the recon planes and the patience for this "recon-spam". At least it could be implemented by the relation of unit exp and commanders skills. Probably by some kind of bonuses because of the tactics. For example , if you read some the Soviet orders/movement plans you can find that enough often was used the night-only marches with the day-rest after it somewhere in the forrest. Maybe even AP's could be spent for it before the large operation so units of the choosen HQ getting the bonus "reduced trackable".

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RE: Air recon too OP - 10/11/2019 2:26:31 AM   
thedoctorking


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Are you playing with fog of war? If yes, the FoW combined with putting your units in difficult terrain - forest, towns - will make them harder to find. Air bases are easier to find because any time an air unit from that base is active it might reveal some information about the base (radar, or following the enemy air units back to their base if there has been a2a combat). I would think that a recon plane flying over a base would be able to get pretty good intel on what types of aircraft are present there, though maybe not exact numbers. The size and number of hardstands, hangers, auxiliary buildings, etc. would give you at least a good idea of bombers/fighters single-engine/multi-engine and a rough idea of how many.

It is kind of odd in general that good aerial recon will give you information about the specific unit, but remember military aircraft often have distinguishing marks on them indicating what squadron/regiment they belong to. Also, the system doesn't distinguish between detection levels gained by adjacency (where unit ID would certainly be available from casualties or POW's) and aerial recon. Also, there is some electronic intelligence going on, intercepting communications and the like, and in-person recon by partisans and special forces teams supplementing information gained by air recon overflights. I have often felt that there should be some random revelation of units in the rear, especially in enemy territory, to account for partisan/spec forces operations.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 2
RE: Air recon too OP - 10/11/2019 1:21:43 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3185
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer
air recon is too superior... especially against the enemy air bases.
By the air recon it is possible not only to get 100% info about number of the enemy planes,their models/types,overall number of planes and how many of them are ready , but also possible to find out the names of AB and the air units there (really? = ).


It is worse than that - the numbers also update even after the recon mission!! So you send the recon, they discover how many aircraft are on the airbase and for every moment ever after in the turn even if you send no more recon there! At the very least the enemy should not get updated information of what happens after the recon!

The rules mean the maximum detection level of airbases by air recon is always five and they lose a fixed detection level of 2 every turn. This may need to be changed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayerfactors should affects the air recon results:
1) Weather. During blizzard,snow,mud(rains) turns should be less the missions and less the result quality.
2) Terrain. In the clear terrain the unit could be spotted much easier. Currently it's easy enough to spot the units in the some others terrains too.
3) Size of the enemy unit. The large formation could be spotted much easier and vice versa.
4) Let's call it "maskirovka". The special actions/events that aims to hide out the units. The success of the many operations was achieved by the surprise of that fact that the units was not spotted. But in the game currently its absolutely impossible – the both sides need only some number of the recon planes and the patience for this "recon-spam". At least it could be implemented by the relation of unit exp and commanders skills. Probably by some kind of bonuses because of the tactics. For example , if you read some the Soviet orders/movement plans you can find that enough often was used the night-only marches with the day-rest after it somewhere in the forrest. Maybe even AP's could be spent for it before the large operation so units of the choosen HQ getting the bonus "reduced trackable".


One likely reaction is that some will say all of this is already modelled. Bad weather does reduce the effectiveness of recon. Good air commanders can overcome this. Similarly for bad terrain non-airbase units cannot have their detection raised above 2 when they are more than a few hexes from the enemy. Many players do use maskirovka type tactics, for example by hiding tank forces in swamps.

The problem for the Soviet player is that the Axis have such overwhelming numbers of recon airgroups needing little fuel to fly them that all of these penalties can be overcome simply by flying more recon missions. I am not sure I agree that is true for the Axis player - lack of recon planes is a real problem for the Soviet side and they cannot compensate for these without flying missions that will reduce the size of their recon fleet in future turns. There is no such thing as Soviet recon spam unless the Soviet player wants future turns with no recon at all.

Players can try to obscure movements in some areas by concentrating fighter interception or flak against recon around them - but then of course these would be tell talk signs of something going on.

One thing that would be useful is for a player to know what are their units with low detection levels to the enemy so that they could use that to their advantage. It might be possible to code that.

I would also like special activities that could decrease detection levels or make it more difficult for the enemy to see them at some penalty such as movement points or admin points. But I guess that is not possible with WitE1 code now.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 10/11/2019 2:38:42 PM >


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(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 3
RE: Air recon too OP - 10/11/2019 1:48:42 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 1971
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
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Recon is an area of the game that does need some attention.

One thing that could be done to help would be to make all towns maximum det 2. This would make it much easier to disguise large concentrations in the South where it's almost impossible at the moment due to lack of woods hexes.

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RE: Air recon too OP - 10/11/2019 3:57:35 PM   
thedoctorking


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Joined: 4/29/2017
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The thing about cities is that there are people living there, even under the Axis General Plan for the East (which made a priority on driving out or starving urban populations). In the USSR, many of those people are unsympathetic to the Axis cause (especially because of the way they are being treated by the Axis occupation) and willing to pass information to the (very well-subsidized) Soviet intelligence operation. I'd say similar things would be true in the other direction for cities in Germany, Hungary, and Romania. Honestly, I'd think that any unit in a city in an enemy country should have increased det level. You can hide stuff out in the country from spies much more easily.

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 5
RE: Air recon too OP - 10/11/2019 6:35:59 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 1971
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
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Yes I agree and I sugested similar ideas about partisan intelligence years ago.

I was thinking more in terms of what can be done practically given that the game is not under development and things can only be tweaked.

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Post #: 6
RE: Air recon too OP - 10/11/2019 9:43:03 PM   
thedoctorking


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You're probably right. Take it up with the WitE2 development team.

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Post #: 7
RE: Air recon too OP - 10/19/2019 10:06:07 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 118
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
It also effects combat.
A hasty attack of less than 2:1 instead is converted into a recce attack. Which will result in reduced fighting and losses on both sides and the attacker will have no chance to cause a retreat. This result will be reflected by the combat resolution message “Defending forces were scouted.”



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