Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/7/2019 6:45:34 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
Many patches ago German 1st Cavalry Division (1. Kavallerie-Division) became motorized.
How correct is that?
From that I read only this unit (if we skip that Guderian also temporally had some Infantry divisions at start for crossing Bug river and for capture of Brest-Litovsk (Brest)) was non-motorized in the Guderian's Group.
From "Guderian H. Erinnerungen eines Soldaten. — Heidelberg, 1951" / Russian edition of 1999 :
Part VI. Campaign in Russia 1941. Preparation.
„- by using 1st Cavalry Division, which was part of the tank group, on the right flank - a swampy area, difficult to passable for motorized formations. „

Yes, I see a discomfort for German players because this unit can't keep speed of the motorized units that has 50 MP. But maybe it could be solved by other way. Maybe by adding more MP for German cavalry, but not up to 50, with a increase a cost of attacks too for them. Or for this unit could be created something special like give to it independent supply status as Sec/Fort units has, so this division could be used in the swamps (or far away from Corps HQ) more freely.

_____________________________

Post #: 1
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/7/2019 6:49:46 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3183
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer
Yes, I see a discomfort for German players because this unit can't keep speed of the motorized units that has 50 MP. But maybe it could be solved by other way. Maybe by adding more MP for German cavalry, but not up to 50, with a increase a cost of attacks too for them. Or for this unit could be created something special like give to it independent supply status as Sec/Fort units has, so this division could be used in the swamps (or far away from Corps HQ) more freely.


It was only changed in one of the v1.11.x patches. There was a lot of protest and debate about the change. However the issue was never about cavalry being unable to keep up with motorised divisions. The argument was that 1st cavalry division was actually a motorised division and not a non-motorised cavalry unit as is 8 SS Cavalry that arrives later. There was lots of discussion about how many vehicles the division historically had at the time. I do not know the rights or wrongs of it myself - but that was the case given.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 10/7/2019 6:50:39 PM >


_____________________________

Gary Grigsby Discord https://discord.gg/ME6af8c

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 2
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/8/2019 5:52:34 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 118
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pu23DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=first+cavalry+division+converted+to+panzer&source=bl&ots=tCbdatRBb1&sig=ACfU3U2TG2j0X4eBT9xnVl-APi6An5uzyQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi2zpfC-4vlAhUESxUIHYH_A58Q6AEwHHoECA0QAQ#v=onepage&q=first%20cavalry%20division%20converted%20to%20panzer&f=false

Goto pages 93/94.



< Message edited by Hanny -- 10/8/2019 5:55:27 AM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 3
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/8/2019 11:10:58 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 1971
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
It was a cavalry division during summer of 1941, not motorised.
Of course it's a more powerful unit as a motorised division, but not historically accurate.

In the game it used to be very useful for screening and converting the marshes, as used by Guderian in real life.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 4
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/8/2019 11:11:16 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
I have seen the comment on other forum that in USA was published the book about the combat way of this division. Maybe someone knows name of this book or can find out it?

_____________________________


(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 5
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/8/2019 11:20:59 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3183
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer
I have seen the comment on other forum that in USA was published the book about the combat way of this division. Maybe someone knows name of this book or can find out it?


I certainly know it is discussed by Guderian in his autobiography. Could that be the one you were thinking of?

quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab
It was a cavalry division during summer of 1941, not motorised.
Of course it's a more powerful unit as a motorised division, but not historically accurate.

In the game it used to be very useful for screening and converting the marshes, as used by Guderian in real life.


That is certainly how Guderian described its use in his autobiography. It was specifically placed in front of the marshes at the start of Barbarossa precisely because of its use of horses rather than motor vehicles to be mobile in the Pripyat Marshes. Until v1.11.01 that is certainly how I found them useful in the game. and the game with draws them as a unit shortly afterwards in 1941 and a little later in 42 you have the arrival of 24 Panzer Division. I understand later in 41/early 42 historically the 1st cavalry division was the unit that became 24 Panzer Division although they kept their cavalry uniforms.

I do not know the actual details of how many vehicles the unit used. But I can see the higher command used it as if it was not a motorised unit?

_____________________________

Gary Grigsby Discord https://discord.gg/ME6af8c

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 6
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/8/2019 11:29:14 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I certainly know it is discussed by Guderian in his autobiography. Could that be the one you were thinking of?

I think it's the separate book about this unit only.

_____________________________


(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 7
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/8/2019 12:04:48 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 118
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6u8GBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA481&lpg=PA481&dq=first+cavalry+division+askey&source=bl&ots=KtTNURZbBR&sig=ACfU3U3dOWn6FNP_sSLi3ksJEE03RZ6NxQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-4LSpzozlAhVgShUIHT9QCNgQ6AEwFHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=first%20cavalry%20division%20askey&f=false

Pages 478/9 1266 MT 51 AFV, full lists of units present and when in the 5 pages of the book.

An argument for it being less mobile is valid, but i personally dont actually have an issue with it as is.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 10/8/2019 12:32:04 PM >

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 8
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/8/2019 12:50:40 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 1971
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
I think his statement that it would be more accurate to describe the division as mechanised in the Summer of 1941 is false. All four regiments were cavalry mounted infantry and the artillery was horse drawn. It had mechanized elements, but at divisional scale it's a cavalry division.

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 9
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/10/2019 1:53:53 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 3106
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
1. Kavallerie-Division
22 June 1941
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/41_organ_army/41_div_kav-01.html

1941–1942 Organizational Symbols
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_41.html




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


There is no such thing as truth in the perceptible universe: every idea when analyzed is found to contain a contradiction.
Aleister Crowley




(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 10
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/10/2019 6:52:23 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 118
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

1. Kavallerie-Division
22 June 1941
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/41_organ_army/41_div_kav-01.html

1941–1942 Organizational Symbols
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_41.html




Nice info for the Germans considering it a Mot formation. Also how the formation appear in literature, see. https://archive.org/stream/GermanMilitarySymbols1943/GermanMilitarySymbols1943_djvu.txt

How mobile was it compared to a Pzr group?.

2nd Pzr Group 111645** tons. 180 days.
OTL Pzr group consumed, 65 tons a day (111645/180/9.5) it went in round numbers around 2000 klm* without having any INF re attached until attacking Moscow or when at Brest liv, so i use 9.5 Divs. We know that the QM report lists the amount of KLM spent on fuel resupply as being 199,384 klm, 309,982 klm of munitions, and 67,073 for spare parts. Pzr group averaged 15 klicks a day in 6 months with 40 days downtime.

* See https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36736381.pdf

TABLE 1 OBJECTIVES ACHIEVED BY THE SECOND PANZER GROUP
JUNE TO DECEMBER, 1941
TIME ROUTE OR AREA DIRECTION DISTANCE
June 22-July 16 (25 days) Brest to Smolensk east 400 miles
July 17-August 24
(39 days) Yelnya (static) 0 miles
August 25-September 22
(29 days) Roslavl to Lochvitz south 300 miles
September 23-0ctober 1
(9 days) Lochvitz to Yanopol north 200 miles
October 2-December 5
(35 days) Yanopol to Skopin east 300 miles

** See https://www.fold3.com/document/160233282/

As the game stands there is leg at 16mp, Pzr/Mot at 50 and cav in between. Is it worth the effort to make a special case for the Div?, or simply acept it is a Mot formation certainly able to manoeuvre as fast as a Pzr formation on average.http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/PDFs/FM2-15.pdf

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 11
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/10/2019 6:55:29 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 5590
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Bexhill-on-Sea, E Sussex
Status: offline
It started as a Bde and took part in the Polish campaign. Upgrade to a full div in Oct 39. History here
https://www.axishistory.com/books/150-germany-heer/heer-divisionen/3895-1-kavallerie-division

Leo Niehorster has a strength for the Bde but not the Div, This can be found here. http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/39_organ_army/39_kav_01.html

You can roughtly calculate the Div strength form the bde strength.


(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 12
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/10/2019 2:05:50 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
As the game stands there is leg at 16mp, Pzr/Mot at 50 and cav in between. Is it worth the effort to make a special case for the Div?, or simply acept it is a Mot formation certainly able to manoeuvre as fast as a Pzr formation on average.

But looks like the main combat parts of this unit was cavalry battalions/squadrons. So their method of movement was on horses(or how is it calls). I don't think that horses was transported by trucks.
Then if this German Cavalry unit can has 50 MP, why Soviet Cavalry units can't has same MP?

_____________________________


(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 13
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/10/2019 2:48:45 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 118
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer


But looks like the main combat parts of this unit was cavalry battalions/squadrons. So their method of movement was on horses(or how is it calls). I don't think that horses was transported by trucks.
Then if this German Cavalry unit can has 50 MP, why Soviet Cavalry units can't has same MP?


A fair question, one answer is that horses ( all Cav have 22mps and are muscle powerd) were expected to travail 35 mpd. While Pzrs ( 50mps and are motor powered) averaged half that. So relative to German capability i dont have an issue with a single unit getting the 50mp. The logistics of the 1st Cav was all motorised, so the daily food, fodder and grain was brought to the horses, other mounted, not so much.

A SU Cav had 100MT compared to 1250 German MT, and 400 wagons, wagons are simply less efficient, so a significant increase in mobility of logistic supply means more time can be spent moving rather than grazing horses, or waiting for wagons. Hence SU Cav Mech formations are not as mobile, but more than German Cav formation, but do increase as the TOE of MT increases during the war, ending up a lot more better of in terms of MPs.

Another answer is that its a fair amount of effort to give axis another form of unit, esp since its a single one.








< Message edited by Hanny -- 10/10/2019 3:32:06 PM >

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 14
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/10/2019 5:42:39 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
Probably we need to divide it a bit.

1) The overall movement of the combat elements, how far the main combat sub-units (cavalry battalions/squadrons) able to move.
2) The ability to supply this unit far away from the rear supply depots

The fact that 1st CavD had about 1250 MT does not affects the ability of the combat cavalry sub-units for the movement. It's only helps to supply whole the division more effectively if it far away from rear supply depots.
So, we have the normal Cavalry division with the some motorized sub-units like pioneers and the motorized supply support rear component. That's why this unit could be used for the distant breakthrough but also able to keep his efficiency even in the such difficult terrain as the Pripet Marshes.

_____________________________


(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 15
RE: German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? - 10/10/2019 10:00:32 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
There is need something more detailed about actions in the Pripet Marshes/untill Dnepr river area. Maybe some kind of "Kriegstagebuch der 1. Kavallerie-Division" if I call it correctly.

_____________________________


(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 16
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> German 1st Cavalry Division. Motorized? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.152