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Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 11:40:54 AM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

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I have published my own review about the TBF.
https://firefoxccmods.com/wp/2019/10/04/close-combat-the-bloody-first-review-i/
Post #: 1
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 1:31:57 PM   
Krupinski


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Hi,

thanks for the review.

Some (i hope) constructive criticism:

In a review i expect the pros and cons. I can`t see any cons so its not like an (helpfull) review for me (should i buy or not?).
It would have been nice to talk about the AI, the evolution of the interface, the depth and so on.
These are the main points for my decision to buy.

Thanks also for the video. But i missed your voice.

Cheers
Hafer




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Post #: 2
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 2:24:50 PM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

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I do not add voice in my videos. I added pros and cons, they are inside the video and in the review description. Just read it.

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Post #: 3
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 2:28:28 PM   
CGGrognard


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Good review Nomada. Thanks for sharing.

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"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." - Sun Tzu

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Post #: 4
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 3:16:01 PM   
Krupinski


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quote:

Just read it.


I hoped you wouldnt get personal. My fault.
I read it 2 times - couldnt find just one cons. Sorry about that.



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Post #: 5
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 3:22:39 PM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

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Do not worried, it is the first part from the review.

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Post #: 6
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 3:32:12 PM   
Krupinski


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Ok, thanks. Looking forward for the second one.

Cheers
Hafer

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Post #: 7
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 6:19:46 PM   
Boozername

 

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Did you use an online translator?

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RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 6:31:33 PM   
FroBodine


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There are many problems with the game, that you don't mention at all. Read this review . . . lots of screenshots and descriptions of poor A.I., strange behavior, and downright bugs.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/10/04/wot-i-think-close-combat-the-bloody-first/


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Post #: 9
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 6:59:47 PM   
Boozername

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FroBodine

There are many problems with the game, that you don't mention at all. Read this review . . . lots of screenshots and descriptions of poor A.I., strange behavior, and downright bugs.



OUCH....Le Bocage aux Folles

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Post #: 10
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 7:06:35 PM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

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Can you see a poor IA in my video?

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Post #: 11
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 8:16:26 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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Thanks for linking that review. I posted a response in some depth on the Steam forums so I'll go ahead and re-post it here:

I think some of the points made in that review are fair while others are mistaken or exaggerated.

On the ‘brief pause that may occur during battle’ -- this is over-enthusiastic CPU usage caused by the AI doing an extensive search for the best place to move a unit so it can fire at one of your units that it wants to destroy. A fix for this pause is in the works.

There are some issues with vehicle targeting at close range. There is an update up (or very soon to be up) on Steam that includes a tweak to vehicle accuracy to reduce streaks of missed shots at close range. Each ‘shot’ in TBF is aimed by creating a sort of mathematical aiming ‘cone’ in which the exact direction of the shot is distributed randomly. For many weapons the size of this cone narrows as the gunner corrects for previous misses. This is similar to how the targeting reticle shrinks and blooms in some first person shooters. There is a maximum accuracy a soldier can have based on their experience and stress, however, and this maximum needed to be allowed to narrow further for tank/AT gunners or the random distribution was still allowing streaks of misses to occur at improbably close range.

The “Steep Angle” issue when vehicles are at extremely close range is a different problem but also something I plan to address. This has to do with the gunner failing to differentiate between the parts of the enemy vehicle's 3D model he can see versus those parts he can actually depress the gun low enough to hit. The gunner is aiming for a point on the hull front that is a good target at normal ranges -- it provides the most wiggle room to still hit the target even with aiming errors and shot-to-shot variation from the weapon. But this spot can become problematic when they are muzzle to muzzle because the game engine puts real-world constraints on how far each vehicle can elevate and depress its gun. When they’re that close the target can end up too low to point the gun at and the code needs to account for this special case.

Vehicle path finding through very tight spaces is a bit of a double edged sword. The path finder works on a 1x1m grid (twice as detailed as the old CC engine) and vehicle models vary quite a bit in size. Currently vehicles are allowed to pass within a certain minimum distance to impassable terrain even if the 3D models for larger vehicles may clip into the impassable terrain a little. This is a trade-off to reduce the frustration of 'Can't go there' order failures with vehicles in tight terrain. The alternative would introduce opposite cases where smaller vehicles would refuse to take paths they should be able to. That said, tanks should not end up inside buildings and that is an issue I'll look into.

Spotting is based on a formula where range is a factor, but so is the action of each man in the unit, how many men have LOS to the unit, and how much obscuring foliage or smoke is in the way. There may be cases where the formula can be improved but there is no hard coded 200m detection bubble. Vehicles in the open are spotted well beyond 200m.

The AI does not know exactly what units you have or where they are. It does know the rough odds between the forces on the field – 3:1, 1:1, 1:2, etc. It uses this rough measure to make decisions about when to attack or defend. This information is available to the player via the force balance bar on the pre-battle briefing screen and you can gauge how much it has changed during a battle via observed losses and the force cohesion shown at the top of the screen. The AI will never take less units than it can so this ratio will never be far wrong from the player’s point of view. Yes, the player can deliberately take less units into a battle – there’s no reason to do this, but you can. In this case the AI will know its force is stronger than yours. This is an edge case that causes the AI to have info the player wouldn’t, but it can’t actually occur the other way around because the AI won’t ever take less units. The alternative would be to have the AI fail to react when a player takes an action that tells the game ‘I am deliberately putting myself at a disadvantage.’ From the player’s point of view the AI would look pretty foolish if the player took a single rifle unit into a battle against an entire enemy company and the AI just sat back and waited for the player to attack.

So in summary, I think this review levels some fair criticism but also jumps to some unwarranted conclusions. Ultimately whether you find the game to be fun or not is up to you.

(in reply to FroBodine)
Post #: 12
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 8:30:57 PM   
budd


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I'm enjoying the game so far and expect things will improve. I was wondering why no skyboxes or ambient sounds? curious omissions. I've only played a few battles but i hope there are some bigger maps in the game. Seem to just about always start in contact or very close, not much room for maneuver. Are the map sizes limited to help the AI out?

Are there patch notes for that patch just released? When i installed looks like the version number didn't change and i also saw a version number 0.9.0 on the options screen and 1.0 when the game starts up.



_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 13
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 8:46:02 PM   
headcount_slith

 

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Thanks for the detailed response, Steve.

"Vehicles in the open are spotted well beyond 200m."

All my scenario editor tests and in-game experience (24 hrs with the release code) contradict this. When I place two forces 350 metres apart on Omaha Beach, the non-played force is invisible until I push a unit very close to it. I tried a similar test on a suitable Tunisian map and got exactly the same results. No sightings until a friendly was roughly 200m from the enemy. Can you point me towards a scenario in which I can see long-range spotting in action?


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Post #: 14
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 9:04:12 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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Sure. Attached is a test scenario with some vehicles on both sides of Omaha Beach.

EDIT: Forgot to explain - place the "LOS Test.txt" file in your Windows Documents folder under \My Games\CloseCombatTheBloodyFirst\Scenarios\ and then click the 2nd tab from the bottom on the left of the Command Screen to load 'LOS Test'.

Steve

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Steve McClaire -- 10/4/2019 9:14:16 PM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/4/2019 9:31:31 PM   
budd


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Had to test for myself. Well the shots aren't to clear but one is 479 meters and the other is 283






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by budd -- 10/4/2019 9:32:39 PM >


_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to Steve McClaire)
Post #: 16
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/5/2019 6:34:29 AM   
headcount_slith

 

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Steve's test scenario does seem to prove that tanks can be spotted by infantry beyond 250m (I've no idea why my results were different). But take *only* tanks into that battle (deselect all infantry) and see what happens!

< Message edited by headcount_slith -- 10/5/2019 6:36:35 AM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/5/2019 4:41:55 PM   
Steve McClaire

 

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As noted, there is no hard-coded 200m 'bubble' limiting spotting. I will take a look at the case where the player chooses not to take any infantry at all.




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Post #: 18
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/6/2019 5:55:55 AM   
headcount_slith

 

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Steve, while I accept that my claim that AFVs can't be spotted at ranges above 200m may have been erroneous (my review will be amended shortly), I stand by the general thrust of my detection criticism. The game does feature de-facto bubble spotting and 200m does seem to be the magic number for most units on a map.

I've yet to see a CCTBF infantry unit detect for itself (i.e. not borg spot) an enemy infantry unit at a range above 200m, even when the enemy was advancing towards them across open ground. This situation is, of course, nonsensical from a realism point-of-view.

A simple edit of your LOS test scenario (Remove AFVs, change from 'meeting engagement' to 'Axis attack') followed by a play test as Allies, shows de-facto 200m bubble spotting in action, very clearly.





(The German unit in the image was spotted a split-second before the pic was taken)

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by headcount_slith -- 10/6/2019 5:58:25 AM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/6/2019 7:05:13 AM   
headcount_slith

 

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And, coincidentally, how close to a German HT does an advancing Sherman have to get, before it spots said HT? A quick edit of the LOS test suggests 200m.


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RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/6/2019 5:04:53 PM   
budd


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Yea, there is defiantly something strange a foot.Same Normandy map, no AFV,German attack, spotted enemy AFV at 400+ meters, first spot on infantry 212 meters but unidentified, identified at 201 meters.

I think whats in the picture is a problem. Where did these guys come from, and why no floating icon. They just appeared in the VP circle and started shooting at my mortar. They never did get an icon, i could target them with what was left of my mortar crew.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to headcount_slith)
Post #: 21
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/6/2019 5:09:53 PM   
budd


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Another interesting thing, another picture will follow in the next post.

Same setup as previous, except just a lone allied AFV. You can see how much time has elasped. My tank started taking fire from another AFV, strange, nothing was spotted. 4 shots went by before i managed to catch a shot in flight, still nothing spotted. See the incoming round.








Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to budd)
Post #: 22
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/6/2019 5:12:49 PM   
budd


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A bit later my AFV gets hit, crew bails, nothing spotted, time stamp 22:46. One more picture in the next post




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to budd)
Post #: 23
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/6/2019 5:15:20 PM   
budd


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2 seconds later after the crew bails, incidentally those enemy infantry are just over 200 meters away.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to budd)
Post #: 24
RE: Close Combat TBF review - 10/6/2019 7:30:10 PM   
budd


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Here's a link to a video i shot doing the Normandy LOS test. I edited out segments when nothing was happening, no shooting or visible enemies. German attack, noon, i have a recon car, jeep and recon squad. They take a lot of fire from unseen enemies, and one enemy seems to teleport to the VP never seen on approach. Every spotted unit is in the video, nothing is identified outside 200 meters. i have seen unidentified contacts outside 200 meters but barely outside 200 meters. It also concern that the AI never really does much of an attack, if you look at the game time stamps you can see not a whole lot happened and the scenario went the distance. I gave the Germans a pionier company 44 and no support units.

Hope this helps you figure out what could be going on Steve.

https://youtu.be/S9eTD94w5sc

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to budd)
Post #: 25
Close Combat TBF review part II - 10/10/2019 12:21:16 PM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

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I have published the second part my own review about the TBF.
https://firefoxccmods.com/wp/2019/10/10/close-combat-the-bloody-first-review-ii/

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Post #: 26
RE: Close Combat TBF review part II - 10/14/2019 12:48:16 PM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

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I have published the third part from the review.
https://firefoxccmods.com/wp/2019/10/14/close-combat-the-bloody-first-review-iii/

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Post #: 27
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