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Possible issue with axis supply in England during Sea Lion

 
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Possible issue with axis supply in England during Sea Lion - 10/1/2019 9:58:03 PM   
Ktonos

 

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Axis paradrop takes Southampton, and takes London from Dover.



After bombing runs on allied turn London has 0 supply with a full strength German HQ on it. London port has 4 supply but is blockaded. Dover has 3 supply (so providing 1 to London where the HQ is)

Southampton has 1 supply, Portsmouth (port) 1 supply with the neutral American destroyer near it (don't know if it blockades I placed it in desperate mode "just in case"). Southampton has the Para unit, which never had 5+ supply during the 3 turns of the Sea Lion.

3 panzer units are spread in line from london. Note all three arrived with amphibious invasion.

Next turn not only the Panzers moved with full movement APs wrecking whatever miserable plans I had, but also the Para from southampton airdropped north. As noted I took special care this unit to never have the 5+ supply it needs to be prepped in airdrop mode.
Opponent informed me that with this patch amphibious units retain supply for some turns but I always thought this concerned only Commando units. In any case HQ ought to give minimum supply, but the impression is it gave 8.

On the other hand, in another game where I do a late 1942 Sea Lion the situation is as this:

Spanish HQ on Plymouth. I also hold the town east to Plymouth. Opponent bombed all three targets to 1 resource (Plymouth, town east and Plymouth port plus port blockaded). Next turn the Spanish HQ provides 8 supply.



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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/1/2019 10:02:27 PM   
crispy131313


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Amphibious HQ now provide additional supply, declining over the next turns to normal, this was announced in the patch. Perhaps Bombing the HQ would help?

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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/1/2019 10:30:08 PM   
Ktonos

 

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Yes HQ was also amphibious in the 1st case. Even then I had cut of the hex connection between London and Southampton. The additional supply from amphib HQs is 8 or 10?

In the 2nd case Spanish HQ was transported to Plymouth.

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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/2/2019 12:57:57 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Ktonos,

Here are the relevant patch notes that Crispy is referring to:

- HQ units, after amphibiously unloading, start at 10 supply and maintain supply for up to 5 turns with a drop of 2 supply points per turn. This is similar to Special Forces, and allows the HQ to act as a Mulberry for an initial landing until further supply sources are achieved.

Hubert

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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/2/2019 9:27:49 PM   
Ktonos

 

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Many thanks for the clarification. Missed it when I skimmed the patch notes. With 10 supply from Dover on turn 2 and 9 from London on turn 3 the Para on Southampton had ample time to prepp.

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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/3/2019 9:17:55 AM   
The Land

 

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I do think this change is overpowered though...

I can just about see the argument that doing an amphibious assault with an HQ is expensive enough that this ability isn't too cheap (though also arguably, the investment the Allies made on mulberries in 1944 was out of reach of other powers in other years....). But it really devalues the naval part of the game. A mulberry harbour doesn't mean that a 2-month stock of supplies is landed in an amphibious invasion, it means that there's another place that ships can unload their cargo if they're able to reach the harbour past enemy submarines, warships and bombers...

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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/3/2019 7:25:12 PM   
sPzAbt653


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I would agree that is really a benefit to the invading player. No nation had the ability other than the USA to spend huge resources on such extravagances. In lieu of those Mulberries, Port facilities were necessary. I have been playing 653N forever with the self imposed rule that no HQ or Armor unit can make an Amphibious Assault. They must land at a captured port. Armor units had too much heavy equipment to come in over beaches, and HQ represent the infrastructure provided by a port or Mulberry system. In my opinion

German Amphibious Invasion Preparations:




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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/3/2019 7:26:38 PM   
sPzAbt653


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USA Invasion Preparations [for you youngster's that don't know what this is, do a quick read on Wiki's Mulberry Port]:




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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/3/2019 8:34:15 PM   
Ktonos

 

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I agree with the above. In general I am of the opinion that it is a good thing for the game to have such historical details simulated, but as long as they were the exception and not the canon, they should be represented via Decisions rather than gameplay changes. Decisions are very good to rep exceptions, as a one off thing. Gameplay changes affect, well, the gameplay. A flat change to the whole game.

Eg, one of the major weapons UK has against a Sea Lion, is to deny supply and ports to the Axis. With an axis "mulberry" HQ any such attempt is made moot.

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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/4/2019 1:56:24 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Thanks for the feedback and part of the issue here is that the game needs to have supply rules that not only work on the Russian front, but also for mainland Europe, North Africa as well as for events like D-Day and so on.

For example, we received some criticism in the past that pockets, let's say on the Eastern Front deep into Barbarossa, were too difficult to eliminate if there was an HQ present, i.e. they should be considered "cutoff" and easily dispatched. Fair enough, however in game terms a pocket on the Eastern Front is essentially the same thing when players are in low supply in North Africa or when they've landed a D-Day landing and resource supply is damaged or a resource is not yet secured etc.

All this means is that if we "fix" the Eastern Front issue, we potentially break other low supply handling of the game in areas such as North Africa or D-Day, and so we had to think of potential ways around that.

In our latest releases we have lowered supply for HQs that are "cutoff", this does address the Easter Front concerns, and then had to rejig HQ connections and boosts from other HQs, as well as lower and change the Malta Supply effects for North Africa to help compensate for lower supply there... and then to handle the D-Day situation, and to introduce our long held desire to include some sort of Mulberry effect in game, we modified HQ supply rules after they land from an Amphibious assault. Had we not, then HQs would have gone from having a distribution supply value of 5 to a distribution value of 3 when landing without securing a supply source.

Essentially we are not doing anything in a vacuum and we are always trying to keep in mind that any potential change will have an effect somewhere else in game, and thus the little adjustments here and there.

But that being said, the feedback here is definitely fair enough and for a situation like Sealion, the new supply boost to HQs is perhaps too much (especially that early in game) and we can look into making another minor tweak here to help compensate for that.

I have a pretty good idea for this and will discuss with Bill to finalize it for a future update.

Thanks,
Hubert

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 10/4/2019 1:57:40 PM >


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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/4/2019 4:06:10 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

the game needs to have supply rules that not only work on the Russian front, but also for mainland Europe, North Africa as well as for events like D-Day and so on.

As someone who has worked with other game designs on the 'three front scenario', I can appreciate this statement.

I think some folks that don't fully understand the rules are to blame for 'pocket hold out' criticism. Any such issues were resolved in beta three years ago.

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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/11/2019 8:16:14 PM   
Ktonos

 

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So, I'm returning to this as I'm sure there are issues with supply after the recent patch.

In my game vs ArmouredLion, my Rommel is stranded 2 hexes southwest of Elalamein, with a max of 1 supply reaching to him after Strat bombing from the opponent. Italian HQ is too far behind and damaged (on the town est to Tobruk) to provide a chain supply. El alamein is Axis but at 1 supply. Supply reaching Rommel is either 0 or 1, despite that he provides 8 (and his icon is depicting he receives 5)

In addition to that I will remind the issue with the Spanish HQ I already mentioned in England (it was transported not amphibiously landed)


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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/12/2019 8:21:05 AM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Can you send me your challenge ID for this PBEM++ game. I'd be happy to take a look and provide any clarification as needed.

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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/15/2019 2:35:30 AM   
Ktonos

 

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Sry for late response, was away for a couple of days.
ID is 162705. Rommel's supply just got normal though in the latest turn.
For 3-4 turns it was on an unhindered 8.

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RE: Possible issue with axis supply in England during S... - 10/15/2019 7:55:06 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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What my guess there is that one HQ was acting to boost the supply of the other HQ. Unfortunately if your turns are now at the point where Rommel's supply has returned to normal I won't be able to see what was happening before.

But with our next update any HQ that is boosted will show the source of the boost (a highlight will show on the source HQ) and this will help to clarify situations such as these.

Hubert

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