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Russo-German War 1941-45 - 9/27/2019 9:00:04 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9325
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		This scenario is the Axis Programmed Opponent [PO] Version of the Directive 21 Scenario. This means that you can now play as the Soviets against the Axis Computer. Human vs. Human is also possible. As there are extensive changes in other areas, it was felt that a name change was best, in order to avoid confusion. Below is a condensed list of changes [the full change list is several pages long].

Axis 5-Track PO added
Equipment Database changed to a revised Derek Weichs Database.
OOB Revisions.
TO&E Revisions [based on the works of Fredrik Henriksson [German units] and David Glantz [Soviet units].
Proficiency Revisions.
Soviet Production Revisions.
Terrain/Map Revisions.
Replacement Revisions.
Working on Naval Combat Results. Naval Attrition Divider changed from 10 to 100, then from 100 to 50.
See the attached scenario document for further details.

This has been worked on for over a year. Most of the changes won't be immediately noticeable and actually have little to no effect on game play. The Axis PO is a big part of this, but it is basically a roughed-in item. It is there, and it is functional, but it will take time and playtesting to improve. On a scale of 1-10 it currently probably rates a 3. One C2C run has resulted in an Axis loss in May 1943. Some adjustments have been made and a second C2C run has resulted in an Axis loss in November 1943. At this point it can't hurt to have humans that may be interested in checking it out.

v1.3 posted Feb. 25, 2020
PO Adjustments

v1.2 posted Dec. 22, 2019
Added more StuG's [StuG Abt's are not included, the StuG's are contained in other units].
6.SS division now withdraws to the West Front if Finland surrenders.
Restored Turn 1's positive Movement Bias for the Axis [which had been left out].

v1.1 posted Oct. 11, 2019
Corrected error that caused Winter to affect the Axis in July 1941.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 2/26/2020 1:45:13 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 9/27/2019 1:17:51 PM   
Alan Sharif

 

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 9/27/2019 1:51:01 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4531
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		Does this effectively upgrade D21 if you were playing Axis vs Soviet PO ?

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 9/27/2019 1:52:34 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39171
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Does this effectively upgrade D21 if you were playing Axis vs Soviet PO ?

I think it does. Seems to be the same map, few changes I guess.

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 9/27/2019 1:57:27 PM   
StuccoFresco

 

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Status: offline 		Good job!

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 9/27/2019 2:42:35 PM   
Zovs


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Status: offline 		Seems like this may be a good PBEM game?

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 9/27/2019 2:43:53 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39171
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Seems like this may be a good PBEM game?

Try it and find out. I'd like to know the answer to that myself.

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 9/28/2019 10:38:55 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 1976
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Status: offline 		i am up for a game!PBM

Tigercub

< Message edited by tigercub -- 9/28/2019 10:39:16 AM >

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 9/28/2019 12:53:30 PM   
DD696

 

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Status: offline 		Browsing through, I find the German 6th Army to be an artillery unit with lots of artillery, but no regular corps components. Just wondering if this is intentional?

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 9/28/2019 4:07:20 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9325
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Does this effectively upgrade D21 if you were playing Axis vs Soviet PO ?

I don't understand the question

quote:

Seems to be the same map

It is but there are Terrain/Map Revisions, I've gone over every hex [but it was quite a boring job so I may have missed a few]. No more rails thru difficult hexes, no more rivers in the lakes, etc.

quote:

Seems like this may be a good PBEM game?

I don't know if it is 'good' because I don't pbem and it hasn't been tested that way, but Human vs. Human is also possible.

quote:

I find the German 6th Army to be an artillery unit with lots of artillery, but no regular corps components. Just wondering if this is intentional?

German Artillery:
Besides the divisional Artillery included in the Headquarters units, the Germans had a pool of independent Artillery. These Artillery units have been organized under their historical German Korps HQ's at the start of Barbarossa as ArKo [Artillery Commander] and Harko [Higher Artillery Commander] units. While the Germans never mastered the art of massed artillery as their opponents did, these German Artillery units provided Artillery support wherever it was deemed necessary. In the scenario they are organized as Korps formations so the player is encouraged to use them as they were historically [spread across the front], but does allow the unhistorical option to mass them.

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 9/28/2019 4:28:59 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4531
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		Was asking if you could play against Soviet PO but have downloaded it and see you can.

< Message edited by tyronec -- 9/28/2019 5:12:39 PM >

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 10/3/2019 7:03:38 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9325
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

Just an Idea, perhaps there should be an event where Soviet mothball Baltic Fleet

[From a comment Larry's current D21 AAR, but I didn't want to impinge on his thread.]

It's a sore topic for me, as a scenario designer, how to handle the 'on paper formidable' Soviet Navy. Having just gone thru all the testing and changes for the newer version, the Soviet Naval units were a nuisance, and I still couldn't come to a comfortable answer.

If Leningrad/Kronstadt falls, the Soviet Baltic Fleet would have been scuttled to prevent Jerry from using them. We can't argue that, can we ?

The Soviet Navy was not going to do any serious 'navying'. See Albert Seaton's book 'Russo-German War' for a nice unbiased rundown of the Red Navy's capabilities.

I thought we had put Withdrawal Events in D21 to get those units out of our hair under the right conditions, maybe I mis-remember. But I have put such events into this later version.

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 2/26/2020 1:49:06 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9325
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Completed a play thru and have made some adjustments to the Soviet PO based on the end file. The new version is 1.3, as seen below at lower left, and is attached to Post #1.

Judging by the streams of Soviet traffic coming from the East, I am glad this one ended as it looks to get rough soon!




Attachment (1)

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 2/29/2020 10:27:34 AM   
fulcrum28


Posts: 546
Joined: 2/28/2010
Status: offline 		i put the .sce file in documents/games/TOAW4/scenarios but i dont see the scenario in the game menu. I think i(m using v.4.1.0.20

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 2/29/2020 10:28:06 AM   
fulcrum28


Posts: 546
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Status: offline 		scenarios/WWII East Front

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 2/29/2020 11:27:59 AM   
fulcrum28


Posts: 546
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Status: offline 		soviet units in the border are mostly regiments III?

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 2/29/2020 11:35:51 AM   
fulcrum28


Posts: 546
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Status: offline 		i cant see the range of artillery or aircrafts (range circles) ?

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 2/29/2020 8:59:18 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9325
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28
i put the .sce file in documents/games/TOAW4/scenarios but i dont see the scenario in the game menu. I think i(m using v.4.1.0.20

I guess you got it straightened out?

quote:

soviet units in the border are mostly regiments III?

Yes?

quote:

i cant see the range of artillery or aircrafts (range circles) ?

I am hitting 'I' and the Range Circles are shown?

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 3/30/2020 1:27:14 AM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		Wrong thread.



< Message edited by Michael T -- 3/30/2020 1:38:22 AM >

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 3/30/2020 10:08:21 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4405
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Keen to give this one a go PBEM++

Any recommended house rules from the designer?

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 3/31/2020 2:18:59 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9325
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Maybe in the doc but I'm not going to read thru it to find out I do remember there are some suggestions in the Axis Minor Nations part.

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 3/31/2020 4:55:32 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4405
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		I read the doc. So nothing else then. Looking forward to playing it once I get familiar with TOAW again.

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 4/3/2020 2:50:35 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1806
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I have been playing the version 1.3 as Soviets versus Elmer Germans, and there are some nuances in the Soviet armies that I think might make this one a bit difficult for the Soviet player in PBEM ... esp. the units in South / Southwest Front that do not get movement points, and the various tank units for Soviets that seem to only get 1 movement point per turn.

But I think the scene is a lot fun for versus computer, either as Axis or as Soviet.

< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 4/3/2020 2:52:02 PM >

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 4/4/2020 2:25:12 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9325
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Thanks, I'll take a look at those things. They were created for Elmer and probably should not be there for the human.

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 4/7/2020 9:30:28 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4405
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		After reading the above I put my game of this on hold. However I have a question.

It seems counter intuitive that in this scenario German Infantry divisions are more capable of forcing RBC on weak Soviet units than Panzer Divisions (as they are broke down in to components), so Panzers are far less capable of forcing RBC on weak Soviets. Forgive me but this is very strange. Am I missing something?

Why is the scenario designed like this? Why not have the Panzer Divisions also as one strong unit capable of forcing RBC on weak units?

This seems to me a critical issue for the early days of Barbarossa and as I said counter intuitive.

Is there some way to get RBC with a stack of units rather than just a single unit?



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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 4/28/2020 1:44:34 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9325
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

What I would most like to see, is the air units in their own formations.

I think those are units that contain the early plane models that should get destroyed early on and then they are out of the way. I noticed, as you have too, that they hang around quite some time. I'll take a look at them.

quote:

they have to march to a rail head. Frustrating with units that appear there around Archangelsk.

There is this Point [seen below] out in the wilderness, and the Soviets will reconstitute there, in order to be pretty far from the Axis reach, which helps Elmer. Maybe for the Human Soviet Player the Point can be removed.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 4/28/2020 9:24:32 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 1976
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		i am with Michael T the panzer Div`s should be one unit with the option to break it down the way it is sucks! is there someone who can change this i looked at doing it but was beyond me!

Tigercub


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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 4/28/2020 6:17:42 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9325
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		At the beginning of time we had one unit Pz Div's and folks complained that breaking them down results in a loss of efficiency and only three units and reduced ability to exploit and maybe something else I can't remember. So we changed them to separate units. I've always wanted to add Theater Options to re-combine them if the player wants, but not until they upgrade later in the scenario. It looks like you guys want them combined from the start but that can't be done because TO's don't take effect until the following turn.

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 4/28/2020 6:18:07 PM >

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 4/28/2020 7:42:21 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1806
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		FWIW: "reduced ability to EXPLOIT" should be, IMHO, the least factor in deciding effects of units.

For me (casual player currently on Soviets turn 104 against German PO) the Soviet OOB should be the primary focus of revision (if you want to focus on playability that is, as far as PBEM as Sovs) ....

Lately, every time I fire up a round against Elmer (Axis), I find myself pulling my hair out, b/c of the Soviet OOB [seems badly fractured, to me] e.g. take a look at First Shock Army (soviet) ... NIGHTMARE for human!!!!

That might play well as Germans flesh v. Sov PO, and I have played it that way very enjoyably, but what a human would might want to do w/ Sovs in this is very highly frustrating as a Human Soviet. Don't get me wrong, I love the scene and I keep trying my best as Sovs but it is very very hard ... and frustrating ... as a Soviet human player. I think it would be very very very frustrating against human Germans.

< Message edited by Hellen_slith -- 4/28/2020 7:50:28 PM >

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RE: Russo-German War 1941-45 - 4/29/2020 12:26:26 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 1976
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		if they could be a theatre option that would be fantastic!

Tigercub

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