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River and shock attack - 9/26/2019 6:36:22 PM   
gmtello

 

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Once u have some units that have crossed the river . What do new units need for crossing and not shocking. Believed they have to representa less than 30 per cent of av. So If you have units in singapore that have 1000 av and you are crossing new units to attack If they are 299 av shock will not be auto?

< Message edited by gmtello -- 9/26/2019 7:15:58 PM >
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RE: River and shock attack - 9/26/2019 8:45:31 PM   
geofflambert


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I've never seen an automatic shock attack when crossing a hexside I already own.

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/26/2019 10:30:31 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I've never seen an automatic shock attack when crossing a hexside I already own.


I couldn't find coverage in the manual either - just a mention that river crossings are disruptive. But Alfred detailed this a few years ago. There is a ration of newly crossing troops AV to the AV of troops already across that is checked. IIRC, the newly crossing AV must be 30% or less of the AV already across to avoid a shock attack.

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/26/2019 11:15:54 PM   
dcpollay


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I thought the rule was, the existing friendly forces' AV in the hex had to be 25% or 30% of the enemy AV. This represented an established beachhead rather than an assault crossing.

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/27/2019 12:44:54 AM   
geofflambert


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I've sent "sacrificial lamb" units across to take the punishment, then followed with a much, much larger force without an additional shock attack.

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/27/2019 1:21:01 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I've sent "sacrificial lamb" units across to take the punishment, then followed with a much, much larger force without an additional shock attack.

Ok, maybe I got it the wrong way around and the troops already across have to have 30% of the newly crossing group. The issue is supposed to be with the size of the protected bridgehead over the river. Too large a force trying to cross would have to use parts of the river bank not held by friendlies.

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/27/2019 12:41:44 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcpollay

I thought the rule was, the existing friendly forces' AV in the hex had to be 25% or 30% of the enemy AV. This represented an established beachhead rather than an assault crossing.



This is also what I thought (the 30% figure that is).

Its about whether, or not, you have a sufficiently large force across to be able to screen the crossing from the enemy.

That would be all about what ratio of the enemies size force you already have across, not the ration of your own forces.

This makes it almost impossible to calculate to the Nth degree, since knowing the enemies exact strength during the movement phase is impossible, which is in keeping with the basic design intent of the game.

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/27/2019 9:29:54 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I couldn't find coverage in the manual either


Its in there, I just don't have time today. I'll try tomorrow.

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/28/2019 2:52:28 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I couldn't find coverage in the manual either


Its in there, I just don't have time today. I'll try tomorrow.

Well good luck! I looked under Terrain, LCU Movement, Land Combat, Rivers, and Special Rules.
I am sure I was not aware of the crossing conditions until Alfred looked at the code and explained it during a discussion about why some river crossings cause SAs and other crossings do not.

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/28/2019 1:34:34 PM   
alimentary

 

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8.3.1

"Rivers do not slow travel speed, but moving across a river hex side into a hex with enemy units will cause an increase in the disruption of the moving units. Moving across a River hex side will also cause the crossing unit to initiate a shock attack unless the moving side has a presence of friendly units that are already in the hex that meet a threshold of strength when compared to the non-moving side."

< Message edited by alimentary -- 9/28/2019 1:36:07 PM >

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/28/2019 6:15:19 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Well good luck! I looked under Terrain, LCU Movement, Land Combat, Rivers, and Special Rules.


Yeah, tell me about it. The manual alludes to a 'threshold' on p190, but gives no specifics. Knowing that I had seen it somewhere I continued looking.

Its in the readme file 25 DEC 2014. Ver 1.01.02a, #50. "...1/3 unmodified AV of the defenders has already crossed from that hexside in a previous turn".

Tah-dah.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to alimentary)
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RE: River and shock attack - 9/28/2019 11:06:44 PM   
BBfanboy


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Don't know how I missed the manual quote when I scanned that page. I guess the first sentence of the paragraph did not mention rivers so I skipped the rest.

At least I remembered the part about the comparison being friendly to friendly, not friendly AV to enemy AV.

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/29/2019 1:08:24 AM   
dcpollay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Well good luck! I looked under Terrain, LCU Movement, Land Combat, Rivers, and Special Rules.


Yeah, tell me about it. The manual alludes to a 'threshold' on p190, but gives no specifics. Knowing that I had seen it somewhere I continued looking.

Its in the readme file 25 DEC 2014. Ver 1.01.02a, #50. "...1/3 unmodified AV of the defenders has already crossed from that hexside in a previous turn".

Tah-dah.

This says, "...unmodified AV of the Defenders..." That, to me, means the strength of the enemy forces, not your own. You are encroaching on the hex held by someone else, making you the attacker, not the defender.

_____________________________

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Formerly known as Colonel Mustard, before I got Slitherine Syndrome.

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/29/2019 6:08:16 AM   
BBfanboy


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Ok - I read that as the friendly forces defending the river crossing for the new arrivals.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: River and shock attack - 9/29/2019 9:23:30 AM   
alimentary

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Ok - I read that as the friendly forces defending the river crossing for the new arrivals.

Yes, the friendly forces are defending for the new arrivals. But that is irrelevant to the wording in the manual. The manual does not talk about attackers or defenders. It talks about the moving side and the non-moving side.

The moving side (the player crossing the river) needs a force ratio already in the hex compared to the non-moving side (the other player).

Here is the quote from the manual:

"Moving across a River hex side will also cause the crossing unit to initiate a shock attack unless the moving side has a presence of friendly units that are already in the hex that meet a threshold of strength when compared to the non-moving side."


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RE: River and shock attack - 9/29/2019 1:56:25 PM   
Kull


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Thanks to alimentary for posting the appropriate section from the manual and to rustyi for pointing out that more information is available in the readme.

To the latter, here is the entirety of the text (it's on page 41 of 67 in the readme.doc file, which lies in your WitP-AE root directory):

50. Gameplay Change: Change to river assault – reversion to original rule - when crossing a river into a hex all units entering should shock attack in the turn they cross, unless 1/3 of the unmodified AV of the defenders has already crossed from that hex side in a previous turn.

So that nails down the ratio and the timing. The attacker must have a force with at least 1/3 of the DEFENDER'S unmodified AV already across the river (and they must have arrived there on one or more previous turns) in order for subsequent river crossers to avoid having to shock attack.

Also worth noting is the verbiage specifies "that hex side", so presumably the game is keeping track of how many hex sides are being crossed, and how much AV has arrived over each one. Probably not a common situation, but something to bear in mind.

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RE: River and shock attack - 10/1/2019 7:05:01 PM   
pontiouspilot


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It must be through same hexside. It doesn’t matter if the crossing force is 5% of that in the hex if they cross a different hex side. I found out the hard way in taking Chungking.

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RE: River and shock attack - 10/1/2019 7:28:21 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

It must be through same hexside. It doesn’t matter if the crossing force is 5% of that in the hex if they cross a different hex side. I found out the hard way in taking Chungking.

Correct.

+1

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RE: River and shock attack - 10/1/2019 8:12:06 PM   
HansBolter


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So I was off by 3%.

At least I had it straight that it is a ratio of the defenders strength.

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RE: River and shock attack - 10/1/2019 8:18:49 PM   
John B.


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So, if I'm reading this right, if the defender reinforces in subsequent turns and raises it's unmodified AV to the appropriate level then new attackers crossing the river would have to shock attack even if previous ones did not have to. Probably does not happen too much but an interesting thing to think about.

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RE: River and shock attack - 10/1/2019 8:53:08 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

So, if I'm reading this right, if the defender reinforces in subsequent turns and raises it's unmodified AV to the appropriate level then new attackers crossing the river would have to shock attack even if previous ones did not have to. Probably does not happen too much but an interesting thing to think about.



Yes, possible of course, but actually not necessary to screw with any attempt at calculating to the Nth degree.

The defenders recovery of disabled squads during the course of the next turn will impact the calculations.

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RE: River and shock attack - 10/2/2019 3:42:46 AM   
NigelKentarus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I've sent "sacrificial lamb" units across to take the punishment, then followed with a much, much larger force without an additional shock attack.


Sure hope I'm not in the "sacrificial lamb" unit.

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