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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2

 
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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/4/2019 10:02:05 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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ckk fixed and uploaded a fix ta

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/4/2019 11:09:26 PM   
ckk

 

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Thanks Andy

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/5/2019 6:55:23 AM   
Yaab


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Andy, I am attaching a zip file. It contains a doc file about ships (xAKL, xAP, and support ships) which were not present in Pearl Harbor on 7 Dec 1941. You have already amended three of them, but there is a few more.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/7/2019 8:38:23 AM   
Yaab


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Units 7755 and 7807 bear the same name - 24th Chinese Base Force. There is no 25th Chinese Base Force in the OOB, so you can change the name of one unit to 25th Chinese Bafe Force.

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/8/2019 6:45:28 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Andy, I am attaching a zip file. It contains a doc file about ships (xAKL, xAP, and support ships) which were not present in Pearl Harbor on 7 Dec 1941. You have already amended three of them, but there is a few more.


Nice info, thx Yaab. I have missed the Florence D, still had her at Pearl in my mod.

Concerning the Hirondelle - she was under repairs at Hong Kong and unable to move, was captured by the Japanese and put into service as the Gyonan Maru. See https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-Chron/USN-Chron-1941.html

Gyonan Maru is not in stock.

Note that the chronology also mentions U.S. freighter Admiral Y.S. Williams which the Japanese captured at Hong Kong and put into service as Tatsutama Maru.

Tatsutama Maru is not in stock, however there is a cargo called Admiral Y. Williams at San Diego which has a sunk date in the editor which corresponds to the day Hong Kong fell.

Since capturing vessels is not possible in AE, I have deleted Hirondelle and Admiral Y. Williams from the Allied OOB and added Gyonan Maru and Tatsutama Maru to the Japanese side, becoming available at Hong Kong in March 1942 with some damage to repair.

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/8/2019 9:59:36 AM   
Yaab


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The strange thing is how few xAK/xAP ships USN had in Pearl Harbor on Dec 7, 1941. There were no ships to quickly move troops/supplies over the Pacific. Seems like the base was purely for basing the combat fleet.

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Post #: 96
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/8/2019 12:40:29 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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I will look into it trying to let the new settle down a little and stop changing it every 5 mins !!!

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/8/2019 12:45:40 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Since capturing vessels is not possible in AE, I have deleted Hirondelle and Admiral Y. Williams from the Allied OOB and added Gyonan Maru and Tatsutama Maru to the Japanese side, becoming available at Hong Kong in March 1942 with some damage to repair.


While researching merchant ships with Dazzle camo, I came across something similar. "Empire Pagoda" was captured in Singapore, was renamed "Gyoten Maru", and is not in the Allied or Japanese OOB. (Note: Just informational, not in any way a request for Andy to do something!)




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kull -- 10/8/2019 12:46:39 PM >


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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/8/2019 1:01:46 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

The strange thing is how few xAK/xAP ships USN had in Pearl Harbor on Dec 7, 1941. There were no ships to quickly move troops/supplies over the Pacific. Seems like the base was purely for basing the combat fleet.


Such shipping as the USN/USA had under their control was being heavily used, much of it moving reinforcements and supplies to the Philippines (or other forward bases). Merchant shipping normally tries to stay in motion too, and despite the gathering war clouds I've never run across a mention of fully civil vessels (not under military control or charter) in the Pacific running in convoy until after the war started. The "lots of individual ship TFs at sea" for the Allies is a lot of clicks on the first few turns, but quite realistic.

Edit to add: and, at least per Niehorster, there were some AP/AK at Pearl: http://www.niehorster.org/013_usa/_41_usn/pac-service-force.html
I've never run Niehorster against the starting OrBat in the game, but the only times I've checked him against DANFS (or other authoritative sources, for other things) he's been right, so I tend to trust him. I'd be interested if anyone has found errors.

< Message edited by Gridley380 -- 10/8/2019 1:05:49 PM >

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/8/2019 8:30:08 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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Niehorster is good but not without errors. For example he has AK-23 Alchiba at PH on Dec 7, 1941 - while according to DANFS she was in the ETO on the way back from Iceland to NYFC. He also has AE-3 Lassen at PH while DANFS says she departed Norfolk for San Francisco on Nov 22nd - seems a bit stretched to arrive in time at PH.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 10/8/2019 8:45:05 PM >


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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/9/2019 8:49:59 PM   
Kull


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Andy - This probably just confirms something you already knew, but a computer-v-computer test of Scenario 2 (v.4) had no Soviet Activation through March 5, 1942:





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 101
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/12/2019 3:26:53 PM   
Yaab


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Andy, can you fix the starting ships in PH on 7 Dec 1941 in scen001? That is the last remaining thing to fix at the scenario's start.

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Post #: 102
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/21/2019 8:14:17 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

Resources etc - A little more on map LI for both sides to better reflect food production reduced off map supply and 'magic supply to compensate in most cases. (China/Burma/SEA/Russia mostly)


What is the total added LI for the entire map, and could we have this broken down by area.

I ask as I seems that there is a substantial quantity of LI that falls in to Japans hands, and given the general resource surplus Japan runs...

Yeah, moderately concerned what this does to the industrial capability of Japan...

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Post #: 103
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/21/2019 8:23:39 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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I couldn't tell you to be honest somewhere between 200 - 300 LI total would be my guess it was mostly 5's and 10's added to various bases someone would need to use one of the 3rd party tools to check it out

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/22/2019 8:42:44 PM   
Moltrey


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Reading between the lines here Andy, but- it sounds like you did the industrial tweak to help in certain areas with having enough supply to make the scripts/AI "work correctly" (or perhaps you mentioned this in notes and I am confusing things)
Would this be why you seem to be saying the amount should be OK given the minute amounts tossed around?

Just curious.

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Post #: 105
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/22/2019 10:03:10 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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partly that but only partly I also made it a lot harder to move supply around overland in Thailand to Burma and Northern Australia and in China by putting supply throughput caps on a lot more bases so the extra supply is on map compensation in those areas

e.g. all of the dot bases added Northern Australia and Burma will make it a lot harder for both sides to draw supply overland so by adding a little light industry it means units wont starve out quickly so it was compensation rather than add ons

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Post #: 106
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/22/2019 10:13:17 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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Now there were some bases where I added a little on map industry that had nothing to do with supply caps e.g. Truk has 10 LI now to reflect a v small amount of food production, Tinian has 2 LI for same reason think Saipan got 2 as well and Guam got 10 I think

So that's on map production of 24 per day from those 3 bases as its on map it can be bombed so its not hidden free supply

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Post #: 107
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/22/2019 10:15:07 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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In scen 1 I didn't go mad In Aus/China and Burma/Thailand it was compensation for making supply harder to move and in the SOPAC and CENTPAC areas it was relatively small numbers

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Post #: 108
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/22/2019 10:26:33 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Now there were some bases where I added a little on map industry that had nothing to do with supply caps e.g. Truk has 10 LI now to reflect a v small amount of food production, Tinian has 2 LI for same reason think Saipan got 2 as well and Guam got 10 I think

So that's on map production of 24 per day from those 3 bases as its on map it can be bombed so its not hidden free supply


One of the things I liked about your 100 series of test scenarios were the islands that had both resources and LI, but not enough resources to keep the LI completely fed. As a result, I was running a bunch of small AKL "tramp freighters" around the South Pacific, delivering resources to places that otherwise are completely ignored in most games. Was it necessary in the grand scheme of things? No, but it just felt a lot more realistic - like these were populated islands that you couldn't ignore.

As for the throughput caps, those worked extraordinarily well in Burma. I have a few Allied units holding out in Katha and Mytkina against the Ironman AI, and it's an absolute nightmare trying to keep those guys properly supplied. You'd be insane to do this against a human player, but now it's darn near impossible against the AI, too. Feels absolutely right.

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/23/2019 12:16:52 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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The LI is really only designed to not have forgotten garrison units starve to death from lack of supply

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/24/2019 1:52:39 PM   
Moltrey


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That's great! I am all for having a bit of relief in the game here and there to reduce some of the micro-management worry. Considering the scale and simulation we are playing I think that is entirely fair and efficient.
Thanks for the details Andy.


@Kull:

Any idea if you will update your Allied Start Spreadsheet to take into account the latest AndyMac unit disposition changes? Not in any rush, just curious. I have started making some of my own cut-and-paste modifications when I am feeling frisky. ;p



< Message edited by Moltrey -- 10/24/2019 1:56:53 PM >

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Post #: 111
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/24/2019 3:21:11 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

@Kull:

Any idea if you will update your Allied Start Spreadsheet to take into account the latest AndyMac unit disposition changes? Not in any rush, just curious. I have started making some of my own cut-and-paste modifications when I am feeling frisky. ;p



I will at some point - and the Japan one as well (and the "updating your AI" thread too). In fact, I'll probably maintain two of each. Even though these new scenarios are replacements for the original set, I suspect some people will continue to use the old ones. I'd even recommend it:

If you think about it, there's real benefit in having new players start their learning process using the original scenarios. From what I've seen, most newbies play for a few weeks or a month, and then - realizing the extent of their mistakes (because "learning cliff") - will start over. Often more than once.

Accordingly, how much better would it be for your individual enjoyment if all these new improvements appear as a complete surprise? The AI for the old scenarios isn't bad, it just doesn't hold up well over time. So in that sense, the old set (in particular 1 and 2) are the perfect training ground for starting players.

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Post #: 112
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/24/2019 5:11:38 PM   
Alfred

 

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Andy Mac,

You are making a serious mistake in presenting these updates, as updates for scenario 1.  These updates should be provided as new scenario numbers.  Plus they should have a warning that they are meant only for Allied human v Japanese computer play.

Alfred

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Post #: 113
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/25/2019 9:43:03 AM   
Andy Mac

 

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Alfred

Disagree on both points

Andy

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/25/2019 9:58:33 AM   
sanderz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Now there were some bases where I added a little on map industry that had nothing to do with supply caps e.g. Truk has 10 LI now to reflect a v small amount of food production, Tinian has 2 LI for same reason think Saipan got 2 as well and Guam got 10 I think

So that's on map production of 24 per day from those 3 bases as its on map it can be bombed so its not hidden free supply


EDIT: All this refers to the scenario 2 files
For info these values seem to have been updated to:-

Truk : 20 LI 15R
also got 10 Oil and 10 Refinery

Saipan : 2 LI and 5R

Tinian : 20 LI and 15R

Guam : 10 LI and 8R


Others i noticed (there may be more) :

PagoPago : 5 LI and 3R
Ta'u : 1 LI and 1R
Nukufetau: 1 LI and 2R
Vaitupu : 1 LI and 2R
Nanumea : 1 LI and 2R
Funafuti : 1 LI and 2R
Roi Namur: 5 LI and 5R
Ponape : 1 LI and 2R
Peleliu : 5 LI and 3R
Babeldaob: 3 Li and 2R
Pagan : 2 LI and 5R




< Message edited by sanderz -- 10/25/2019 10:22:58 AM >

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Post #: 115
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/25/2019 10:03:32 AM   
Andy Mac

 

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If that’s in scen 1 it’s wrong that’s the Scen 10 values I will correct tonight

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RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/25/2019 10:15:37 AM   
sanderz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

If that’s in scen 1 it’s wrong that’s the Scen 10 values I will correct tonight


Sorry, i should have said its from your SCN02_v5

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Post #: 117
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/25/2019 5:35:52 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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v5 of Scen 1 updated no need to restart changes were minor

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Post #: 118
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/25/2019 5:55:39 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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v6 of Scen 2 also uploaded

I am not planning on making any more changes to Scen 1 or 2 - the AI being totally honest is not going to get much better than I have above and doing variants will only complicate it.

The only potential future change will be if I decide to add more bases in the future or someone spots a howler I have made

I no longer have the ability to stamp the scens official nor would I without the QA of Elf/JWE/Don/Joe/Andrew so although I disagree with Alfred's statement above I do acknowledge and ask everyone to note these are not stamped scenarios they are minor updates to scen 1 and 2 (apart from the additional bases and re write of the AI) so use them at your own discretion.

They have had broadly the same level of scrutiny I gave to the last official update !!!!

To be clear unless you are looking to play out a simulation in the Pacific or a PBEM I do NOT recommend the historic scenario 1 v the AI unless it is your first ever game it is simply too easy to walk over in late 42/early 43



< Message edited by Andy Mac -- 10/25/2019 5:59:52 PM >

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Post #: 119
RE: Updated Scen 1 and 2 - 10/26/2019 3:06:11 PM   
Yaab


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Thanks for updating scen001 to v5.


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