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Naval War Mod glitches - 9/21/2019 9:51:53 PM   
Jackmck

 

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Most allied units in the force pool have incorrect names. Also, the initial research and resource settings appear to be high- is it intended for the USSR to be advanced to 1 in many fields already?
I thought the Mod was only for Naval units and rules, but it appeared to change lots about other things. Was that intended?
Just started a PBEM as allies.
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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 9/23/2019 2:08:44 AM   
Hairog


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The only rules that were changed were the Zones of Control, retreat and defensive evasion.

There is a problem with the 1943 using the wrong setup that we are correcting as we type.

Did you use the Naval War Units mod?

I'm rechecking everything and it should be available in a day or two. Sorry about that.

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 9/24/2019 6:13:59 PM   
ctimmerman

 

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All the land and sea units for all sides have crazy names. George V for an Italian taskforce? Italian names for German armor? etc. This is for the naval war mod. I'm assuming names are correct without the mod but the mod otherwise seems to correct a major shortcoming of the naval system in the base game. I'm guessing the names data somehow didn't match properly with counter IDs.

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 9/24/2019 6:47:01 PM   
Hairog


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Where were you guys when I needed Beta testers?

All most done with the patches and I checked the names. They're correct in this version.

There will be a new Naval Mod Readme as well.

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 9/30/2019 7:14:11 PM   
shi4stone

 

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I loaded this campaign from the community pack, but I could not see these changes in gameplay, i.e., no extra zoc from screening force, CV\s dont evade...why is that?or how can check if ZoC is working as intended?

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 9/30/2019 9:43:56 PM   
Hairog


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Revision coming soon. In the meantime you can check by taking one of your naval units and sliding next to an enemy unit and there should be an additional 6 movement points added. If not then I suspect that you are playing the scenario where you have to have two units to activate the zone of control.

If so... the short-term fix is to open the editor. open the campaign in question in the Community Pack. Save As, something besides the real name. then in the tabs on top find the Campaign Tab, then the Edit Movement Cost Data Tab. In the middle of the page there should be the Zone of Control section and at the very bottom of that there is a box labeled # of Units Required. It should be one, if not change it to one. OK - Save - Play game.

That should do it. see screen -below






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Hairog -- 9/30/2019 9:45:49 PM >


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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 10/27/2019 3:44:39 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog

Revision coming soon. In the meantime you can check by taking one of your naval units and sliding next to an enemy unit and there should be an additional 6 movement points added. If not then I suspect that you are playing the scenario where you have to have two units to activate the zone of control.

If so... the short-term fix is to open the editor. open the campaign in question in the Community Pack. Save As, something besides the real name. then in the tabs on top find the Campaign Tab, then the Edit Movement Cost Data Tab. In the middle of the page there should be the Zone of Control section and at the very bottom of that there is a box labeled # of Units Required. It should be one, if not change it to one. OK - Save - Play game.

That should do it. see screen -below







Where can I find a list of changes for the naval mod? Don't see it posted?

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 10/27/2019 5:54:06 AM   
Hairog


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Naval Mod Readme HERE

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WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

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Post #: 8
RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 10/27/2019 4:45:33 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog

Naval Mod Readme HERE


Thanks! Looks interesting!

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 10/29/2019 5:36:55 AM   
Hairog


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I think it works, so far most like the changes. I haven't seen an announcement but there are new versions, sans bugs, somewhere in the Matrix.

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Post #: 10
RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 10/29/2019 2:24:49 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog

I think it works, so far most like the changes. I haven't seen an announcement but there are new versions, sans bugs, somewhere in the Matrix.


Is there a forum post discussing it anywhere? Also is this mod available for WIE?

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 10/29/2019 9:02:35 PM >


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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 12/2/2019 3:11:21 AM   
Hairog


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A naval mod for SC3 WIE the 1939 scenario was posted HERE. Others have not been done yet. There is not much call for it, I guess.

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 12/8/2019 1:41:24 PM   
CaesarAug

 

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A curious thing... I cannot use the game editor to open the Naval War campaign. An error comes up about not finding the convoy.txt file. Yet there is a convoy.txt file... Any thoughts about how I can open the Naval War campaign? Thanks!

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Post #: 13
RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 1/1/2020 1:12:45 AM   
Hairog


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If I recall it has something to do with the Community Mod folder and require special handling. I’m sorry but I don’t remember exactly what it is. This should be a question for Hubert or Bill.

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Post #: 14
RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 1/5/2020 2:51:12 PM   
celebrindal


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I've encountered a couple of interesting scenarios.

First I was attacking a Japanese CV and I destroyed it, got the NM bonus, it then reappeared a couple of hexes over. I hit it with several units, got the NM serveral times. I think about 4 or 5 times.

Another instance, I was going up against a solo Japanese CV, nuked off all the supporting ships, and threw 3 10 str full morale etc BB against it. All 3 BB died. This was after I had hit it with 6 strikes from my CV's. CV was down to 3 unit str and I think about 2 airpower. Never could kill it and reloaded as that seemed like a bug vs a tough CV ;-)

I changed my tactics and hit it with 5 CV's and that seemed to do the trick but wow.

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 1/5/2020 3:54:32 PM   
Hairog


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Thanks for the feedback and I will look into it. The fact that the BBs couldn't sink the CV is built into the mod. Very rarely did surface ships sink CVs because they couldn't seem to catch them in the open ocean. Only two CVs were sunk by surface combat. The Glorious and Gambier Bay. Both were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I am puzzedled at the seeming immunity from air attack. If a CV is caught and attacked by a full air component of another carrier, it should go down.

The Battleships being damaged needs to be looked at as well.I may have done this as a deterent earlier on but I thought that I rejected it and turned it off. It really is a myth that BBs got anywhere near a CV much less fire shots at it. I've tried to make it a waste of time.

Again thanks for pointing these out.

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 1/5/2020 8:47:23 PM   
Simulacra53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog
The fact that the BBs couldn't sink the CV is built into the mod. Very rarely did surface ships sink CVs because they couldn't seem to catch them in the open ocean. Only two CVs were sunk by surface combat. The Glorious and Gambier Bay. Both were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It really is a myth that BBs got anywhere near a CV much less fire shots at it. I've tried to make it a waste of time.


Just being in the wrong place vs a myth, odd.

If a carrier could be engaged by a surface ship, it was at a disadvantage. That’s why carriers needed protection.
Being in the wrong place is part of that equation. Just like being in the wrong place when a submarine fired spread of torpedoes hits a CV... or being in the wrong place when that single lucky DB lands a bomb at the right (wrong) time and right (wrong) place to start a catastrophic fire.

By granting immunity to CV you also allow tactics that are not realistic.
So instead of making something a waste of time, try to recreate the proper circumstances within the bounds of the game engine.

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 1/6/2020 4:51:25 AM   
Hairog


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The facts speak for themselves. Out of all the carriers and surface ships vying the oceans in WWII only 2 allied carriers did not evade and were sunk by gunfire. The situational awareness of a properly commanded carrier group made it almost impossible for it to be caught off guard by a superior surface force.

quote:

If a carrier could be engaged by a surface ship.


Very true statement, but any carrier force commander worth his salt would not and did not let it happen.

quote:

On the way through the Norwegian Sea the funnel smoke from Glorious and her two escorting destroyers, Acasta and Ardent, was spotted by the German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau (part of Operation Juno) at about 15:46 pm.[Note 3] The British spotted the German ships shortly after 16:00 and Ardent was dispatched to investigate. Glorious did not alter course or increase speed. Five Swordfish were ordered to the flight deck and Action Stations were ordered 16:20. No combat air patrol was being flown, no aircraft were ready on the deck for quick take-off and there was no lookout in Glorious's crow's nest.


Underscore added by me.

Basically the commander of the Glorious TF did just about everything wrong that you can do to get a carrier sunk by a battleship. In all of World War II this is the one time that a carrier commander (who was a former submariner by the way) did most everything wrong and got caught.

The Gambier Bay:

quote:

Meanwhile, the Japanese threw their entire fleet against American naval power in a desperate gamble to destroy the large concentration of American shipping in Leyte Gulf. Powerful Japanese forces—composed of carriers, battleships, cruisers, and destroyers—attempted to converge on the Philippines in a three-pronged attack to the south, center, and north. The Japanese Southern Force met disaster before dawn on 25 October as it tried to drive through Surigao Strait to join the Center Force off Leyte Gulf. While steaming through the Sibuyan Sea en route to the San Bernardino Strait on 24 October, the Center Force was hit hard by hundreds of planes from the carriers of Admiral William "Bull" Halsey′s 3rd Fleet. After the Battle of Sibuyan Sea, Admiral Halsey no longer considered the Center Force a serious threat, and he sent the carriers north to intercept decoy carriers of the Japanese Northern Force off Cape Engaño.


quote:

The departure of Halsey's carriers left the escort carriers of "Taffy 3" as the only ships guarding the area around Samar. American commanders were unaware of night-time movement of the Japanese Center Force toward Samar. However, shortly after sunrise on 25 October, a gap in the morning mist disclosed the pagoda-like masts of enemy battleships and cruisers on the northern horizon.


So once again a major mistake by a commander and this time the Gambier Bay was truly in the wrong place at the right time.

CV are not immune. You could get a lucky computer generated random number and score big time. However, like real life, the chances are that the carrier will evade just like a real TF would. You surly are not proposing that we ignore statistics and probability in order to model a situation that very, very, very rarely occured. 100% of the time that a Strike Task Force set out to engage a Fast Carrier Task Force it failed, everytime.

quote:

So instead of making something a waste of time, try to recreate the proper circumstances within the bounds of the game engine.


Recreating the proper circumstances within the bounds of the game engine is exactly what I have done. By adding the naval zones of control and the defensive evasion capabilities (both of which Hubert designed into the game) we have recreated the historic situation.

In World War Two it was a waste of time to try and engage a properly commanded Fast Carrier Task Force with surface forces. The Naval Readme does warn you of what the probable outcome would be. This was much more than the real commanders of WWII knew. At the begining of the war the Battleship was seen, by most military minds, as the ultimate weapon. Reality proved this was not the case, but most did not know this. People who read the Readme had a headsup.

The zones of control reacreate the fact that Taskforces did not blithly sail by each other without engaging. Just didn't happen. I could not find one instance where two enemy task forces were within gun range, ignored each other and did not spend significant time and resourses shooting at each other. This was true no matter how large or small they were relative to each other. They still went at it. One of the only times a task force was virtually ignored was Halsey and The Center Force that Taffy 3 encountered.

Many carriers that were sunk, were sunk by submarine but the vast majority were crippled or sunk by aircraft. In the Naval Mod, submarines are an excellent way to damage a carrier.


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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 1/6/2020 9:03:34 AM   
Simulacra53


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So based on statistics you say that carriers being sunk by surface ships are a fluke.

How many US carriers were sunk in WW2?
- by aircraft
- by submarine
- by ship
- combination

12 lost
6 by a/c
3 by sub
2 combination (crippled by a/c, sunk by enemy action)
1 by surface ships

Same for RN carriers.

8 lost
5 by sub
1 by a/c
1 by surface ships
1 accident

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_aircraft_carriers

Are we still talking about anomalies?
IMO it is arbitrary to exclude wrong command decisions as a valid reason to get sunk.
Statistical hero armor.

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 1/6/2020 9:09:10 AM   
Simulacra53


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Now we could do the same for Japanese carriers and get a different loss proportion, but I am being just as arbitrary as you to proof my point.


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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 1/6/2020 9:35:35 AM   
Simulacra53


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Nah, let’s continue.

Japanese carriers
21 lost
11 by a/c
9 by sub
1 combination (crippled by aircraft, sunk by enemy action)

Total carriers lost 41
18 by a/c
17 by subs
3 combined (crippled by a/c, sunk by enemy action)
2 by surface ships
1 by accident

Simplify 40 carriers lost in action
21 by a/c (sunk or crippled to be sunk by enemy)
17 by subs
2 by surface action

42.5%
52.5%
5.0%

First what comes to mind is that submarines are far more effective than just damaging carriers, they were deadly.
Also stats differ greatly depending on what force and theatre you examine.

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 1/7/2020 5:37:07 AM   
Hairog


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quote:

Are we still talking about anomalies?


Yes, two allied carriers were sunk by surface ships. One by stupidity of command and the other by a mistaken assumption. A 95% chance of a deviation from the norm is an anomaly, as defined as "a deviation from the common rule".

quote:

IMO it is arbitrary to exclude wrong command decisions as a valid reason to get sunk.


What level of commands are we talking about. How exactly do we model certain errors within the confines of the simulation?
Let's take the Glorious
1. No altering of course - how do you model that in a weekly, I go you go, game turn?
2. No aircraft on Ready Alert - again how do you model that in a weekly ...
3. No combat air patrol - Once again how ...
4. No one in the crows nest - no comment needed
I suggest, that in a strategic level IGYG game, you can only model such behavior with probability and statistics. How probable is it that all those errors or similar ones, would occur to the average Fast Carrier Task Force? How often did it happen in reality? I've actually given a 4 times greater chance than the historical record would warrant. You have a 20% chance of damaging or sinking a carrier with a surface attack in the Naval Mod.

I have not altered the original parameters for subs. They are what the developer designed.




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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 1/7/2020 5:58:10 PM   
Simulacra53


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Well that 5% is total.
For RN losses in the Atlantic it is 16.7%, USN in the Pacific 8.3%

Of course there are a lot more factors that come into play.
Stupidity or bad luck being factors, just like fueling or arming a/c, poor discipline, poor design etc.
Lessons learned, tactics, drills and designs changed.

I’ll lay it to rest, it is your mod you do whatever you like with it. :)

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 2/27/2020 11:16:45 AM   
chucknra

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaesarAug

A curious thing... I cannot use the game editor to open the Naval War campaign. An error comes up about not finding the convoy.txt file. Yet there is a convoy.txt file... Any thoughts about how I can open the Naval War campaign? Thanks!

quote:

A curious thing... I cannot use the game editor to open the Naval War campaign. An error comes up about not finding the convoy.txt file. Yet there is a convoy.txt file... Any thoughts about how I can open the Naval War campaign? Thanks!


Again, any way to edit the mod so I can see what attributes you have given the ships? Thanks.

Chuck

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Post #: 24
RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 3/5/2020 11:55:34 PM   
Hairog


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They did something to the Community Mods so you can't edit them.

I can send you my files.

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 4/9/2020 4:20:46 PM   
ThunderLizard2

 

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Is Naval Mod also fixed in 1.6.1 so you can use AVL as Axis?

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 8/30/2020 5:55:23 PM   
swdw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaesarAug

A curious thing... I cannot use the game editor to open the Naval War campaign. An error comes up about not finding the convoy.txt file. Yet there is a convoy.txt file... Any thoughts about how I can open the Naval War campaign? Thanks!

Copy and past the files into the Documents\My Games\Strategic Command WWII - World at War\Campaigns folder. You can edit it there and then copy them back into the community mods folder

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 8/30/2020 6:10:57 PM   
swdw

 

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Going to be taking a look at the research increases.

In February of 1942 (as part of the 1939 scenario), I got into a carrier battle with the Japanese (4 on 4). Research was fairly even with them having an edge in fighter research. Was able to take out 2 carrier groups, but I lost 3. Come 1943 and I get into another big carrier battle- 3 Japanese CV forces against 7 US and British. Naval Weaponry and Fighter research were even. 2 Naval, 3 Fighter.

Five of the US CV groups were set to Naval Tactical, the other 2 were set to CAP.
With FIVE, that right, 5 attacks on ONE Japanese CV task force starting with a strength of 8/8, (the other 2 were at a strength of 10/10) I do ONE point of ship damage and 3 points of aircraft on the target and additional five aircraft points on the CV interceptors from another group, wile losing EIGHTEEN aircraft points. In their counterattack, I lose THREE CV task forces

Hmmm, something's out of kilter here.

< Message edited by swdw -- 8/30/2020 6:13:33 PM >

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RE: Naval War Mod glitches - 8/31/2020 3:40:21 AM   
Hairog


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Sure sounds like it, but I don't have the faintest idea what it could be. I want to emphasize that I have changed very few aspects of the naval game and those changes have been exactly the same for both sides. If the Allies got a 6mp zone of control the Axis got a 6mp zone of control as well. If an Axis Fast Carrier Task Force got a 70% evasion rating, so did the Allies. All of the changes are exactly the same for both sides as far as I am aware.

In my play testing I did not have the problems some are describing. My only thoughts are that the newer versions have hard coded something I can't see. I can easily nerf the Axis evasion ratings and make them uneven compared to the Allies. Do you think that would be the solution? If so I can do it and you can test it out.

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Post #: 29
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