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RE: When we will have artillery overhaul?

 
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RE: When we will have artillery overhaul? - 6/5/2020 1:12:50 AM   
nikolas93TS


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Thank you Artillerist!

There are several key issues to address with FOs (for simplicity sake, I will use this generic term for FISTERs, JFOs, COPs etc.). Personally, I wouldn't have even bothered with them if they were not necessary for implementing laser-guided precision weapons. Artillery with accurately modeled capabilities and available at the whim of what can be a company commander (player) will totally dominate the game-play at that force level, and that is why current, fairly simple and effective model, was not criticized much. Ditto for FACs, if you want to play at coordinating stuff like airstrikes, you really need a game at a higher echelon than AB.

First issue is the necessity to have a very flexible system that can cover a wide number of factions and doctrines, over a very wide time spanning from WW2 to present. Some games of similar scale create ad-hoc systems that are very detailed but applicable to 2-3 factions per game.

Second issue is AI. Here most of the games resort to AI-scripting for each scenario, or feature FOs that are effectively usable only by the player. The former is not implemented in AB as of date, the latter is strongly against our design philosophy.

Third issue might be the engine itself. 30x30m squares might not be well suited for fine techniques like FOs team crawling, siting in tree-tops, behind ridges, hull-down positions etc.

As FOs by nature tend to always stay or be in close contact with leadership, the simplest solution could be to keep the current artillery spotting system and to assign a predefined number of laser designator system (varying according to faction, force size or artillery formation) to HQs. Those could also serve as accurate rangefinders, eliminating fire-adjustment delays if we opt to implement more variety in that area. I should note that we are working on OOB re-work that will include layered command network so there will be more integrated HQ units on map.

If the FOs/COPs were always deployed as in manner similar to attached picture, that would have rendered things easy. However, it can positioned elsewhere in the company area to optimize its lasing/spotting and communications capability, or can be detached as for example COLT in US army or observation post.



Arguably, we can go for above mentioned abstracted and slightly unrealistic approach where special equipment like an M981 or a MT-LBu ACRV (or infantry forward observer team) is attached to company or above HQ and given the capability to place TRPs anywhere in LOS at game time (however, I would arbitrarily limit it to just 1 or 2 active TRP at the same time, to prevent player spamming the whole map with TRP and annulling doctrinal limitations; plus there will be era/faction dependent delay between order and TRP appearance). And of course, laser designator which will allow for point attacks with PGM.

That way we can make things much easier by not having to implement a highly complex special AI positional algorithms for independent FOs and other AI behaviors that goes with that (and are not guaranteed to make a smart AI). And the players might get some additional tools to play with if they wish so (he can create a separate HQ artificially acting as an observation post, for example).

< Message edited by nikolas93TS -- 6/5/2020 1:14:56 AM >


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RE: When we will have artillery overhaul? - 6/11/2020 2:10:37 AM   
nikolas93TS


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Bumping this up, because now is the perfect timing to give feedback on the re-work proposal and maybe give some additional suggestions.

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RE: When we will have artillery overhaul? - 8/26/2020 10:00:18 PM   
Artillerist


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My feedback on the proposals is that you're sounding sharp, and in control of the situation, and I look forward to seeing the fruits of your work and research.

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RE: When we will have artillery overhaul? - 12/25/2020 9:14:00 PM   
noonanda

 

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Just got done reading this all, lots of good info. Im a retired Marine Artillery Ops Chief, I was FDC for artillery, taught fire direction at my MOS School, and then in 2006 Got to play Grunt and FO in Iraq while advising the the Iraqi Army, called in for Artillery quite a few times and also called air. I was also the 81s Plt Sgt for an Infantry Battalion. I now work as a Contractor teaching Fire Support Systems, and employment to Marine Corps units such as Infantry Battalions.

I like alot of what has been said, especially with the DS/GS conversation. One thing to remember is say an FO called in a Mission for a target to large for that arty btry or it didnt have the best munitions it could "Request for Reinforcing Fires", which really means that it would kick the mission up to the Arty Bn in DS to that infantry Regiment/Brigade. Now I know the Army Does it different, but for Marines each infantry regiment "theoretically" would have an Arty Bn in DS, and any batteries left over would be assigned either GS, GSR (General Support Reinforcing) or Reinforcing. This is similar to how I always understood Army Div and Corps assets supporting the fight. We would assign those GS batteries to also cover the Counter fire fight, unless we had Army MLRS attached (11th Marines used to get 6-27 FA attached every Spring for our Regimental DESFIREX).

Iraq/Afghanistan Counterinsurgency doctrine changed how we would do counterfire. Instead of in regards to counterfire. Instead of using MLRS, it became a battery or Plt of guns dedicated at some of the larger Forward Operating Bases (FOB's). There was a 2 Gun Paladin Plt based in Habbaniyah that provided us with fire support as well as counducted many counterbattery missions against insurgent mortars.

If there is anything I can do to help with ideas please let me know. I know some radar employment as well, but not as much as I used to back in the day.

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RE: When we will have artillery overhaul? - 1/8/2021 10:30:21 PM   
Artillerist


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Hey Noonanda-- nice to have another artilleryman in the mix.

Funny enough I was at Camp Fallujah and TQ from March 2006 to July 2007. I was an Artillery FO and FSS in an Army mechanized infantry company split off from our brigade and attached to MNF West. We brought our battalion 120mm mortar platoon and Bradleys with. The 120s set up for the duration in the south end of Camp Fallujah, and at the time 2/11 Marines had 3 M198s set up just north of our mortars. To round off Camp Fallujah's firepower we also had an Army GMLRS section from the 3rd Infantry Division set up in the NW end of camp.

Our 120s and 2/11s 155s (callsign "hateful" if i recall correctly) shared the counter-battery responsibility as well as servicing all our fire requests, while the GMLRS mostly shot west towards Ramadi and Habbaniyah. We'd also bring our 120s (as well as some 60s and 81s we fell in on) if we ventured into Zaidon area and for other random missions.

Worked with a Captain Angel from one of your Anglico units for air and quick air clearance on mission. A pair of marine helos ((1 cobra and 1 huey) were usually the first air on scene though in the event we declared a TIC.

Called in my first lethal 155mm mission on December 14th 2006 from 2/11 Marines while we were in Zaidon. Used a viper vector, sent it up as an Adjust fire polar, 400 meter distance, danger close, but someone processed it as a Fire For Effect. Worked out okay though. Will never forget that though.


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RE: When we will have artillery overhaul? - 1/12/2021 9:52:03 PM   
noonanda

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Artillerist

Hey Noonanda-- nice to have another artilleryman in the mix.

Funny enough I was at Camp Fallujah and TQ from March 2006 to July 2007. I was an Artillery FO and FSS in an Army mechanized infantry company split off from our brigade and attached to MNF West. We brought our battalion 120mm mortar platoon and Bradleys with. The 120s set up for the duration in the south end of Camp Fallujah, and at the time 2/11 Marines had 3 M198s set up just north of our mortars. To round off Camp Fallujah's firepower we also had an Army GMLRS section from the 3rd Infantry Division set up in the NW end of camp.

Our 120s and 2/11s 155s (callsign "hateful" if i recall correctly) shared the counter-battery responsibility as well as servicing all our fire requests, while the GMLRS mostly shot west towards Ramadi and Habbaniyah. We'd also bring our 120s (as well as some 60s and 81s we fell in on) if we ventured into Zaidon area and for other random missions.

Worked with a Captain Angel from one of your Anglico units for air and quick air clearance on mission. A pair of marine helos ((1 cobra and 1 huey) were usually the first air on scene though in the event we declared a TIC.

Called in my first lethal 155mm mission on December 14th 2006 from 2/11 Marines while we were in Zaidon. Used a viper vector, sent it up as an Adjust fire polar, 400 meter distance, danger close, but someone processed it as a Fire For Effect. Worked out okay though. Will never forget that though.



Yeah my First Combat call for fire was something I wont forget. Those 2 Army Paladins at Habbaniyah were fast, the delay was clearing air from Hab/TQ to allow them to shoot. One of our Advisors called in a HIMARS GMLRS shot on an Iraqi house with IED material in it. I had dropped an house with similar IEDs in it with air a few days before so likely it was a new "Bomb House".

I tried doing a few different missions to try to speed up the missions to include a Immediate Suppression, but it didnt seem to make a difference

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