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What is with Romanian 47mm calibre guns esp GC start?

 
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What is with Romanian 47mm calibre guns esp GC start? - 9/14/2019 4:57:33 AM   
Saulust

 

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I have been meaning to ask for a very long time about the Romanian 47mm calibre types of guns, both the ATG and the IG.

Why do they start without any 47mm Infantry Guns assigned in their TOE of any of their Divisions? (Since I believe they had obtained their quota of them before the start of Barbarossa, AFAIK.)

It is historically the very same gun as the Italian ATG in game, the Breda/Bohler 47mm L32 or L34 (the Italians measured theirs differently) so I always wondered just how the game handles the Romanian ones, do they have any AT ability or comparable to the Italian device, perhaps as primarily as IG 1st then ATG second or what?

I have read some Soviet anecdotal reports covering the very early days of encounters with the Romanians during '41 in Bessarabia/Moldavia in which they considered them to be very poor opponents against tanks, and seemingly lacking in proper ATG capability. (Not just short ATRs.)

This to me doesn't jive with them having 30 47mm ATGs and 18 37mm Light ATGs, that the game has them, so much so that I suspect 18 of the 30 47mm ATGs are meant to be 47mm Bohler Infanty Guns being counted as 47mm ATGs instead, how do they have 30 47mm ATGs in each Romanian Infantry division in game at start of GC?

The 37mm Light ATG is probably in correct amount allotments at 18 per Romanian Infantry Division, the Germans gave them enough ex-Polish Bofors 37mm light ATGs for this much at least, although I think they wanted more and later got some Rhinematel 37mm Pak 35/36 eventually but I still have an issue with the 5 independent Anti-Tank Companies only having 6 of these each in the max TOE because AFAIK they ought to have 12, however I forget the source for that ATM. Anyway the way Romanian Infantry Divisions were set up they had a half strength Company of 6 per each of their 3 Infantry Regiments so 18 in total per Rum Inf Div is correct, however I am not sure about if they had them in Mtn Bgds or Cavalry Bgds, not to mention the 2 Fortification Bgds...

OTOH the 47mm ATG the Romanians went to war with was not what the game has depicted as their device the French SA 37 47mm L50 47mmx380R, but an earlier 35 or 36 version of that gun, its forerunner actually that was 1st to use the same 47mmx380R round but it was a 47mm L44 model, for which the fully tracked UE Malaxa was also ordered or in licence built to tow, but that only 126 or 128 were ever made. Originally 300 of both pieces of equipment were ordered, however it is heavily suspected that the Romanians manufactured many more than that, indeed usually assumed to be more than double that. But I don't think it was ever enough to give the 20 Rum Ind Div as many as 30 each along with some to the 12 other Bgds 5 independent Frontier Rgmts and the 1 Tank Division. Plus I am pretty certain that even there were some in or supporting the 3 independent Marine Battalions (15,16 & 17) which were guarding the Danubian Delta East of where the 9th Romanian Div starts the GC game.

I know the Niehorster website has only one 1 half company of 6 of the 47mm SA L44 ATGs per Romanian Infantry Division, although I suspect it was actually one unit of 6 per Artillery Regiment of which each Romanian Infantry Div had two, so 12 or else that the other 6 were in hiding back at their Divisional depots but anyway I can't fathom 30!

It seems like something that the game should be able to get right with both these Romanian 47mm calibre guns since even for the Hungarians it correctly has their German supplied captured ex-Belgian 47mm Mle 1931 ATG in game.

Anyone else find the Romanians ATGs oddly handled?
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RE: What is with Romanian 47mm calibre guns esp GC start? - 9/16/2019 11:53:27 AM   
Montbrun


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All of the Rumanian ToEs are taken from the Rumanian Official Histories, and captured German NARA documents.

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RE: What is with Romanian 47mm calibre guns esp GC start? - 9/16/2019 9:59:56 PM   
Montbrun


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I looked up my notes when I got home from work.

For the 06/41 Rumanian Infantry Division, each infantry regiment had a "Companie Armament Greu" containing a "Pluton Anticar" of 6 x 3.7cm ATG, and a "Pluton Obuziera de Infanterie" of 6 x 4.7cm IGs. At the divisional level, there was a "Companie Anticare" of 6 x 4.7cm ATG. The 4.7cm guns were identical, only the loadouts were different. When used in the IG role, then loadout was 2/3 HE, and 1/3 AP. When used in the AT role, this loadout was reversed.

Brad

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RE: What is with Romanian 47mm calibre guns esp GC start? - 9/18/2019 2:49:44 AM   
Saulust

 

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Thanks for replying Montbrun, I but still think that the Romanian 47mm guns are handled weirdly.

1.) It was a Schneider 47mm M1936 model that the Romanians had L44 not the SA 37 L50 or L53, the Romanian type moved its wheels 90 degrees when deployed giving the crew more protection of which there are many pictures of in books & on line. Schneider designed a series of guns & howitzers that way then but just about none were picked up by the French Army. The Germans never supplied any captured French SA 37 47mm guns to Romania AFAIK, keeping most of them in the West, supposedly having trouble supplying ammunition for them! (The Romanians were using the same round in their '36 models, sheeesh!)

2.) I read a source saying they were producing 14 of these guns at a per month rate in or until October 1942. In total it was about only 650ish ever built of these which as I stated earlier it was in response to pre-war Hungary getting Italian L3/35 tankettes Romania contracted for 300 in total as ordered (160) and started to licence build (140 initially) along with 300 of the UE Malaxas to tow them but only built 126 or 128, although got about another 50 ex-Polish or French by Barbarossa apparently. If they were still building them at 14 per month up to Oct 42, and only about 650ish were built how could they have 30 per 20 Infantry Divs on 22 of June 1941?

3.) I think at most it was 12 per Infantry Div at start date, since every source at least all agree that they had a half size Company for their division towed my Malaxas or a truck, but I definitely still cannot fathom how it would get to 30. One source I had difficulty reading in Romanian indicates that along side that 6 at Div Company that either each Inf Regiment or Inf Battalion also had a 2 gun unit of them in a heavy weapons unit, so either 18 or 6 more so 24 or 12, but I am not certain about the date of that possible arrangement, which ever it was!

4.) I have seen a couple of sources that show the five independent Anti-tank Companies as having 12 37mm Bofors guns. Since I think Third Axis/Fourth Ally book indicates that the Romanians estimated or declared that they only had managed to provision their divisions with 50% of their ATGs so I believe that the Romanians had an 'intended' TOE of 12 guns per anti-tank gun Company, but only authorised half strengths of 6 in 3x 2 gun batteries. I have seen a single source indicate that Romanian divs had a single 6 gun Company, and also 3 x 2 guns units spread around their regiments as above, this is the only way I can fathom a total of 30 as 6 at Div plus this 3x2 guns (another 6) and the 3 infantry guns companies of 6 guns each being equipt with the same Schneider 47mm gun.

5.) The 669 ex-Polish Bofors 37mm ATGs were traded for Oil deliveries by the Germans prior to Barbarossa, I think late 1940 or early 1941 and completed delivery of them before Barbarossa start date for all those 18 guns per Rom Inf Regiments and extraneous requirements by the Bgds and other units, inc the 3 Marine Btlns eg. Anyway that 669 total was stated by a source as the most numerous single ATG piece in Romanian inventory at the launch of Barbarossa.

6.) Up to about 820 Bohler & Breda (275) 47mm guns were also traded to Romania for Oil by the Germans, the Bohler were Austrian originals apparently. I am just not sure about the timing of these deliveries. One source I saw said that all came from Germany, but I don't think so, since when did the Germans get their hands upon Brada ones themselves before Sept 1943. I think the Italians gave them those, at a hunch, probably also for Oil no doubt. AIUI, the 275 Breda ones came either primarily or partially as replacements or just for the Munte or Cavalry or some such, since the Germans had no more Bohler to give.

7.) So I think the Germans had already given 500+ Bohler 'Infantry Guns' to Romania before Barbarossa start date because the Germans or most likely either Hitler or Halder didn't want to give them actual German military equipment and had these in stock and traded them for Oil instead of their better leIG 18 75mm, of which they had plenty of to spare for 20+ Inf divs IMHO.

8.) I would like to know when exactly the Germans did trade their 500+ Bohlers to Romania for Oil. But bear in mind that they had them 'in stock' or storage to give to Romania, not a production of 30 per turn or month as in current game.

9.) I read one persons thesis that seemed to 'slightly' miss-use German archives in quotes about the Romanians in battles in '41 with the Russians trying to 'overly' point out how badly equipt the Romanians were. He was implying that the Romanians had no AT capacity because they didn't have actual AP ammunition for their ATGs! However the date of the sourced archiv was May 1941 not the date of the battles in which the line was inserted in their thesis. He also didn't show that the Romanians had any Schneider 47mm ATGs. He only tallied Bofors, Bohlers and Bredas. Just shows you to be sceptical.

I point this material out because it might indicate that a German member of the military mission may have observed in May '41 Romanians with 47mm Bohlers guns as Infantry guns without any AP shells and reported that as an observation. One thing to bear in mind is that Halder wished only to allow a dozen Romanian Divs to participate in Barbarossa, only 3 offensively and had resticted the missions training regime accordingly and some helpful minion was trying to come up with 'claims' to support this direction... the 1st thing I do in game is to immediately set about retiring and replacing f'ing Halder!


10.) Sorry for some repetition, but thanks again for looking into it, cheers MontBrun.




< Message edited by Saulust -- 9/18/2019 3:16:01 AM >

(in reply to Montbrun)
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