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RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/17/2019 5:16:57 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 40178
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovejoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So this officer, a man who did his duty in helping to save passengers, and has a memorial in his hometown of Dalbeattie in Scotland where he is considered a hero, and where at the time the film was made he had close relatives (nephew) still living, has his name trashed for no good reason than making a buck.



Seems similar to what Cy Endfeld did to Private Henry Hook in the movie Zulu. The movie makes him out to be a self-centered drunk malingering in the hospital at Rourke's Drift. The real Henry Hook had been a well-regarded soldier (good-conduct pay and all) and a strict methodist lay-preacher who was a part of the detachment guarding the hospital.

Two of his daughters were present at the UK premiere, and they were so disgusted by it that they walked out of it.

warspite1

When I first read that my immediate thought was that perhaps the time that had elapsed would perhaps make the treatment less harsh - then I remembered that Zulu was made in the 1960's. On closer examination both films were made 85 years after the events

1879 - 1964
1912 - 1997

Its not right, but at least Hook had a 'happy' ending, being recognised with saving the lives of those at the hospital and receiving the Victoria Cross. A little different to poor Murdoch who, thanks to the power of Hollywood, is known for being a murderous (oh and of course a 'limey* bastard' murderer no less ), bribe-taking coward....

*Presumably an Irishman calling a Scotsman a limey (seriously?) at this point was to lay it on with a trowel for certain elements in the audience in case anyone wasn't getting the point - Briton murders unarmed Irishman.....


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/17/2019 5:26:15 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Lovejoy)
Post #: 61
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/17/2019 7:04:20 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 2464
Joined: 11/16/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think it was called something like "The Building", but in Russian. All the dialogue was Russian or German with subtitles IIRC.

EDIT: My mistake - the movie was just called "Stalingrad". Here's a trailer"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqHzs4PtqIE


No subtitles on that clip but I liked it. Thank you.

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 62
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/17/2019 2:43:49 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5129
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
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Liked the clip in spite of not speaking German. Thanks.

Not that it matters but did note a wrecked and abandoned T-34/85 during the German advance. Pretty sure that that model of T-34 didn't appear in combat for about a year. Just saying I'm not sure that a particular historical flaw should disqualify a movie from being enjoyed.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 63
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/17/2019 5:31:17 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 19598
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Had I known of the things you mention when I watched the movie, I would've been chapped beyond measure. Taking liberties with historical figures is what I don't like.

So now you've ruined Titanic for me (mostly - the characters; the depiction of the ship's sinking is excellent). But I haven't watched the movie in many years. May never again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It's been a long time since I've seen Titanic, but nothing stands out in my memory that was horrendous in the portrayal of First Officer Murdoch.

warspite1

William McMaster Murdoch was not a made up character. He was very real. He served as an officer on board Titanic on that fateful night.

As far as we know from all the witness statements, Officer Murdoch did his duty that night, despite the fact that as an officer he knew he was unlikely to survive the sinking.

Yes there were reports of an officer shooting himself just before Titanic went down, but even if correct, there are no witnesses that can confirm who that officer was.

But Cameron decided it was Murdoch. But that is not the least of it. Because Cameron also decided to make First Officer Murdoch a bribe-taking coward who murdered two unarmed steerage class passengers (Irish naturally) before shooting himself.

Apparently the scenes were altered from the original Cameron dreamed up to make the bribe taking more ambiguous. But the given the way Murdoch throws the money back at Billy Zane's character (and the narrative that goes with it), there is little doubt what was being conveyed - and to suggest otherwise is simply disingenuous.

So this officer, a man who did his duty in helping to save passengers, and has a memorial in his hometown of Dalbeattie in Scotland where he is considered a hero, and where at the time the film was made he had close relatives (nephew) still living, has his name trashed for no good reason than making a buck.





(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 64
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/17/2019 5:52:45 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 40178
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


Had I known of the things you mention when I watched the movie, I would've been chapped beyond measure. Taking liberties with historical figures is what I don't like.

So now you've ruined Titanic for me (mostly - the characters; the depiction of the ship's sinking is excellent). But I haven't watched the movie in many years. May never again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It's been a long time since I've seen Titanic, but nothing stands out in my memory that was horrendous in the portrayal of First Officer Murdoch.

warspite1

William McMaster Murdoch was not a made up character. He was very real. He served as an officer on board Titanic on that fateful night.

As far as we know from all the witness statements, Officer Murdoch did his duty that night, despite the fact that as an officer he knew he was unlikely to survive the sinking.

Yes there were reports of an officer shooting himself just before Titanic went down, but even if correct, there are no witnesses that can confirm who that officer was.

But Cameron decided it was Murdoch. But that is not the least of it. Because Cameron also decided to make First Officer Murdoch a bribe-taking coward who murdered two unarmed steerage class passengers (Irish naturally) before shooting himself.

Apparently the scenes were altered from the original Cameron dreamed up to make the bribe taking more ambiguous. But the given the way Murdoch throws the money back at Billy Zane's character (and the narrative that goes with it), there is little doubt what was being conveyed - and to suggest otherwise is simply disingenuous.

So this officer, a man who did his duty in helping to save passengers, and has a memorial in his hometown of Dalbeattie in Scotland where he is considered a hero, and where at the time the film was made he had close relatives (nephew) still living, has his name trashed for no good reason than making a buck.



warspite1

Soz . I must confess I haven't watched it since the one and only time at the cinema 22 years ago. The taste it left in my mouth has never gone away. So much heroism, so much good about the human spirit on show to be celebrated that night in the midst of such an awful tragedy - but Cameron was only really interested in faux political statements and cheap cliches. Yes there is a place for showing the other side, and what can happen to humans under the most intense pressure, but to use an actual character in that way with no proof to support what he was being accused of is disgusting.

Maybe the new Midway will have a subplot where Roosevelt is a closet axe murderer.... why not? Nothing to say it happened - but then nothing to say it didn't.....so that's alright then.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 65
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/17/2019 9:41:45 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2389
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've written about Georgians on Titanic. In doing so, I read a great deal of information about what happened and interviewed some of leading experts (at the time, anyhow - around 2002). The hisorical portrayal of what happened is pretty accurate - especially the physical aspects of the ship taking on water, foundering, and breaking up.

Now the love story added to appeal to audiences? That was pretty cringe-worthy. But the movie is a credible portrayal of a momentous historical event.


It's Romeo and Juliet set on a historical event. As I've said above, nobody gives Shakespeare stick for getting the nuance of Danish medieval politics wrong.


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It's been a long time since I've seen Titanic, but nothing stands out in my memory that was horrendous in the portrayal of First Officer Murdoch.

warspite1

William McMaster Murdoch was not a made up character. He was very real. He served as an officer on board Titanic on that fateful night.

As far as we know from all the witness statements, Officer Murdoch did his duty that night, despite the fact that as an officer he knew he was unlikely to survive the sinking.

Yes there were reports of an officer shooting himself just before Titanic went down, but even if correct, there are no witnesses that can confirm who that officer was.

But Cameron decided it was Murdoch. But that is not the least of it. Because Cameron also decided to make First Officer Murdoch a bribe-taking coward who murdered two unarmed steerage class passengers (Irish naturally) before shooting himself.

Apparently the scenes were altered from the original Cameron dreamed up to make the bribe taking more ambiguous. But the given the way Murdoch throws the money back at Billy Zane's character (and the narrative that goes with it), there is little doubt what was being conveyed - and to suggest otherwise is simply disingenuous.

So this officer, a man who did his duty in helping to save passengers, and has a memorial in his hometown of Dalbeattie in Scotland where he is considered a hero, and where at the time the film was made he had close relatives (nephew) still living, has his name trashed for no good reason than making a buck.


I read quite a considerable bit on the sinking, but quite some time in the past so I may not be exactly up to speed.

Agreed that it was insensitive to use a named character. IIRC Cameron himself acknowledged and apologised for it, but some thoughts:

- There are far too many independent accounts of a officer shooting himself for it to simply not have happened.

- The general consensus (last I checked) is that it was Murdoch who committed suicide, given the fact that he was in charge when the ship struck the iceberg. Occam's Razor, at any rate, makes sense here.

- From a quick glace at the screenplay, I think it was intended to be played off as Murdoch having too much to do to be interested in some first class passenger throwing wads of cash around. That wasn't how it came across on screen, however.

- The bribe always seemed more a mechanic to reflect Cal's nefariousness plot than Murdoch, who does make a point of coming clean before the end.

- For Murdoch, the shooting of the Irish character serves to put a actual human cost on the collision with the iceberg. As well as a less subtle commentary on class conflict in the film - after all the overwhelming majority of casualties were third class.

The really interesting thing for me is that if you cut the bribery twist out, there's a strong argument based on the historical evidence that:

- Murdoch was armed
- there definitely was shooting, at people or otherwise
- An officer (very likely Murdoch) did shoot themselves as the ship started on it's final plunge.

quote:

Soz . I must confess I haven't watched it since the one and only time at the cinema 22 years ago. The taste it left in my mouth has never gone away. So much heroism, so much good about the human spirit on show to be celebrated that night in the midst of such an awful tragedy - but Cameron was only really interested in faux political statements and cheap cliches. Yes there is a place for showing the other side, and what can happen to humans under the most intense pressure, but to use an actual character in that way with no proof to support what he was being accused of is disgusting.


I think you're wrong on Cameron's motivations. I think it's the recent Nat Geo documentary where he discusses the extent to which he developed an emotional connection to the story after diving on the wreck, and had a desire to get the story right as a result.

I'm sure he even had an edit done to the film when someone pointed out that the stars at night were wrong for that time of year.

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/17/2019 9:44:38 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 66
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/17/2019 10:23:48 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 435
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From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
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MM - I will take issue with your Shakespeare position. As someone who has read most of his work in the name of 'higher education', he has gotten a huge pass for whatever reason. But comparing Comedies/Tragedies to Titanic is likely unfair. Cameron threw the BS romance in there, and every time I hear a Celine Dion song I cringe.

And I haven't researched....but I am guessing many of the officers were armed. If he wanted to make a statement he could have created a fictional character. 99% of the audience would likely not have been any the wiser and his message would still be delivered. Without offending family and folks who are in the grognard / cranky old men category.

I think a better story would be more focus on management's decision to not fit out enough lifeboats, commercial arrogance, and they could keep a love story (but please not Celine). And ownership didn't learn, Titanic's near sister went down in WW1 (Brittanic) due a single mine impact, but thankfully loss of life was much, much, less. But she still sank in less than an hour.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 67
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/17/2019 11:53:16 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 40178
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Agreed that it was insensitive to use a named character. IIRC Cameron himself acknowledged and apologised for it, but some thoughts:

warspite1

I don't think he's ever actually issued an apology - although iirc he's suggested that using a real life character was sub optimal - or something mealy like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

- There are far too many independent accounts of a officer shooting himself for it to simply not have happened.

warspite1

I am certainly not suggesting otherwise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

- From a quick glace at the screenplay, I think it was intended to be played off as Murdoch having too much to do to be interested in some first class passenger throwing wads of cash around. That wasn't how it came across on screen, however.

warspite1

No the original scene was more clear cut as to what Murdoch was doing (re the bribe). They altered it so it could be seen to be more ambiguous - but as said, and as you've confirmed, there was no ambiguity in how it came over.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

For Murdoch, the shooting of the Irish character serves to put a actual human cost on the collision with the iceberg. As well as a less subtle commentary on class conflict in the film - after all the overwhelming majority of casualties were third class.

warspite1

The human cost can be shown in so many ways. A 'limey bastard' shooting an unarmed Irish steerage class passenger was not necessary - but simply panders to a certain audience. If this is about human cost - and not childish point scoring - why would Cameron have an Irishman call Murdoch a limey????

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The really interesting thing for me is that if you cut the bribery twist out, there's a strong argument based on the historical evidence that:

- Murdoch was armed
- there definitely was shooting, at people or otherwise
- An officer (very likely Murdoch) did shoot themselves as the ship started on it's final plunge.

warspite1

Except of course its the bribery twist that matters so much. Yes Murdoch was likely armed, yes there were reports of shooting - and as you say it is not confirmed that shooting was at anyone as opposed to warning shots as people began to lose control, and an officer (of which one possibility was Murdoch) did choose to shoot himself at the end.

Given the above, if Cameron wanted to show what might have happened - simply use a clearly unidentifiable and made up character.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I think you're wrong on Cameron's motivations. I think it's the recent Nat Geo documentary where he discusses the extent to which he developed an emotional connection to the story after diving on the wreck, and had a desire to get the story right as a result.

I'm sure he even had an edit done to the film when someone pointed out that the stars at night were wrong for that time of year.

warspite1

Funny that he should be so vexed about the stars and yet fail to:

- show the gates were open - they were not kept locked to keep steerage class passengers down (I believe Goebbels showed something similar in a film about the Titanic before the war. Although of course the steerage class passengers being victimised were German).
- chose to ignore the role of the SS Californian - a rather big omission for one so desperate to get the location of every star right.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/18/2019 12:00:29 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 68
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/18/2019 12:10:13 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 40178
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

MM - I will take issue with your Shakespeare position..... and every time I hear a Celine Dion song I cringe.



And I will take issue with your Celine position sir!

The film may have been a hideous pile of trash, but My Heart Will Go On was very moving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmbw8OycJrE

However, if Celine Dion's version was moving, what Sarah Brightman did with this toon is just beyond mere words...

Her exquisite voice singing in Italian, the beautiful harp, the strings that tear your heart out and above all, the incredible horn section (beginning at 2:58) that simply leaves one a blubbing, defenceless wreck prostrate on the floor. Quite simply one of the finest tracks ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmCyMow0ixs


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 69
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/18/2019 7:47:39 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 2464
Joined: 11/16/2015
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I prefer the second version even though I don't understand much Italian, grazie.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 70
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/18/2019 8:04:56 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2389
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

MM - I will take issue with your Shakespeare position. As someone who has read most of his work in the name of 'higher education', he has gotten a huge pass for whatever reason. But comparing Comedies/Tragedies to Titanic is likely unfair. Cameron threw the BS romance in there, and every time I hear a Celine Dion song I cringe.

And I haven't researched....but I am guessing many of the officers were armed. If he wanted to make a statement he could have created a fictional character. 99% of the audience would likely not have been any the wiser and his message would still be delivered. Without offending family and folks who are in the grognard / cranky old men category.

I think a better story would be more focus on management's decision to not fit out enough lifeboats, commercial arrogance, and they could keep a love story (but please not Celine). And ownership didn't learn, Titanic's near sister went down in WW1 (Brittanic) due a single mine impact, but thankfully loss of life was much, much, less. But she still sank in less than an hour.


A few thoughts:
- I disagree about the fictional character. Murdoch's character arc in the film combined with his historic role did an excellent job of emphasising the massive emotional trauma that he must have experienced that night.
- The lifeboat issue is with modern day hindsight. Any contemporary rescues of sinking passenger ships had occurred when another ship was on hand to assist. In those cases, the lifeboats merely ferried passengers from one ship to another. That mindset was reflected in the legal obligations of ships at that time.
- If you go down the road of being critical of management and leadership, then you run in to the same problem you have with Murdoch with Capt Smith. Ultimate responsibility for the ships actions lay with him, and the general response of Smith (who had a fairly uneventful career) contrasts sharply with that of Lightoller (who IIRC had been shipwrecked twice).

quote:

I don't think he's ever actually issued an apology - although iirc he's suggested that using a real life character was sub optimal - or something mealy like that.


https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/5569954.titanic-apology-from-film-director/

Took me literally two second to google that.

quote:

The human cost can be shown in so many ways. A 'limey bastard' shooting an unarmed Irish steerage class passenger was not necessary - but simply panders to a certain audience. If this is about human cost - and not childish point scoring - why would Cameron have an Irishman call Murdoch a limey????


I disagree. It was excellent mechanism to make stark the underlying conflicts across both national and class boundaries of the time. It's not by chance that the vast majority of Titanic survivors were of a specific national and social class.

As for the specific decision to use "limey" for a Scottish character, I think it's acceptable to use in a ship that was overwhelmingly crewed from Southampton. Even more so when there's water at your ankles.

quote:

Except of course its the bribery twist that matters so much. Yes Murdoch was likely armed, yes there were reports of shooting - and as you say it is not confirmed that shooting was at anyone as opposed to warning shots as people began to lose control, and an officer (of which one possibility was Murdoch) did choose to shoot himself at the end.

Given the above, if Cameron wanted to show what might have happened - simply use a clearly unidentifiable and made up character.


Well, here's some more thoughts:
- It's reasonably likely that there was at least one attempt to "influence" an officer by first class passengers.
- There is a power imbalance between first class passengers and ships officers. Despite the officers authority, actions/allegations by a first class passenger could easily scupper a career. Smith himself gained a positive reputation for his handling of high-profile first class passengers.

As I've said above, a unknown character adds little. With Murdoch, we get a very bitter resolution to a tragic character.

quote:

- show the gates were open - they were not kept locked to keep steerage class passengers down (I believe Goebbels showed something similar in a film about the Titanic before the war. Although of course the steerage class passengers being victimised were German).


Survivor testimony suggests that at least some gates were locked. That specific gate mentioned was near the boat deck of the ship.

As for the situation below decks, it was likely absolute chaos:

- Third class had few stewards compared to second and third class.
- Confusion reigned as orders did not get passed down from above (no PA system!)
- Most of third class had boarded three days previously, so were unable to find their way around in a ship that took two weeks to become comfortable moving around in.

One of the main factors contributing to the high mortality for third class was that they would have needed stewards or crew familiar with the ship to guide them to the boats. For a number of reasons, that didn't happen.

quote:

- chose to ignore the role of the SS Californian - a rather big omission for one so desperate to get the location of every star right.


Actually, they didn't. It just didn't make the cut :)

The Californian's lights were actually included by the special effects team in a number of scenes. Unsurprisingly, they get drowned out so as to be effectively invisible

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 71
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/18/2019 10:09:38 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 435
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
My first attempt to quote - so apologies in advance


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

MM - I will take issue with your Shakespeare position. As someone who has read most of his work in the name of 'higher education', he has gotten a huge pass for whatever reason. But comparing Comedies/Tragedies to Titanic is likely unfair. Cameron threw the BS romance in there, and every time I hear a Celine Dion song I cringe.

And I haven't researched....but I am guessing many of the officers were armed. If he wanted to make a statement he could have created a fictional character. 99% of the audience would likely not have been any the wiser and his message would still be delivered. Without offending family and folks who are in the grognard / cranky old men category.

I think a better story would be more focus on management's decision to not fit out enough lifeboats, commercial arrogance, and they could keep a love story (but please not Celine). And ownership didn't learn, Titanic's near sister went down in WW1 (Brittanic) due a single mine impact, but thankfully loss of life was much, much, less. But she still sank in less than an hour.


A few thoughts:
- I disagree about the fictional character. Murdoch's character arc in the film combined with his historic role did an excellent job of emphasising the massive emotional trauma that he must have experienced that night.

we will disagree on this one.

- The lifeboat issue is with modern day hindsight. Any contemporary rescues of sinking passenger ships had occurred when another ship was on hand to assist. In those cases, the lifeboats merely ferried passengers from one ship to another. That mindset was reflected in the legal obligations of ships at that time.

Not really - and as I have said I have not researched this one much, but they knew there were not enough boats aboard. And even if ferrying, when the ship sinks in an hour you really cannot 'ferry', particularly in the North Atlantic.

- If you go down the road of being critical of management and leadership, then you run in to the same problem you have with Murdoch with Capt Smith. Ultimate responsibility for the ships actions lay with him, and the general response of Smith (who had a fairly uneventful career) contrasts sharply with that of Lightoller (who IIRC had been shipwrecked twice).

quote:

I don't think he's ever actually issued an apology - although iirc he's suggested that using a real life character was sub optimal - or something mealy like that.


https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/5569954.titanic-apology-from-film-director/

Took me literally two second to google that.

quote:

The human cost can be shown in so many ways. A 'limey bastard' shooting an unarmed Irish steerage class passenger was not necessary - but simply panders to a certain audience. If this is about human cost - and not childish point scoring - why would Cameron have an Irishman call Murdoch a limey????


I hold an Irish passport - this was point scoring.

I disagree. It was excellent mechanism to make stark the underlying conflicts across both national and class boundaries of the time. It's not by chance that the vast majority of Titanic survivors were of a specific national and social class.

See above

As for the specific decision to use "limey" for a Scottish character, I think it's acceptable to use in a ship that was overwhelmingly crewed from Southampton. Even more so when there's water at your ankles.

Again - I have not researched this - but sailing from Belfast was she mostly crewed in Southampton? That would seem odd in those days but I love learning.

quote:

Except of course its the bribery twist that matters so much. Yes Murdoch was likely armed, yes there were reports of shooting - and as you say it is not confirmed that shooting was at anyone as opposed to warning shots as people began to lose control, and an officer (of which one possibility was Murdoch) did choose to shoot himself at the end.

Given the above, if Cameron wanted to show what might have happened - simply use a clearly unidentifiable and made up character.


Well, here's some more thoughts:
- It's reasonably likely that there was at least one attempt to "influence" an officer by first class passengers.
- There is a power imbalance between first class passengers and ships officers. Despite the officers authority, actions/allegations by a first class passenger could easily scupper a career. Smith himself gained a positive reputation for his handling of high-profile first class passengers.

As I've said above, a unknown character adds little. With Murdoch, we get a very bitter resolution to a tragic character.

You are making the (incorrect IMO) assertion that anyone but his family and friends knew who he was.

quote:

- show the gates were open - they were not kept locked to keep steerage class passengers down (I believe Goebbels showed something similar in a film about the Titanic before the war. Although of course the steerage class passengers being victimised were German).


Survivor testimony suggests that at least some gates were locked. That specific gate mentioned was near the boat deck of the ship.

You are really not taking the position that people fleeing for their lives took notice of whether gates were locked or not? You are brighter than that.

As for the situation below decks, it was likely absolute chaos:

- Third class had few stewards compared to second and third class.
- Confusion reigned as orders did not get passed down from above (no PA system!)
- Most of third class had boarded three days previously, so were unable to find their way around in a ship that took two weeks to become comfortable moving around in.

One of the main factors contributing to the high mortality for third class was that they would have needed stewards or crew familiar with the ship to guide them to the boats. For a number of reasons, that didn't happen.

quote:

- chose to ignore the role of the SS Californian - a rather big omission for one so desperate to get the location of every star right.


Actually, they didn't. It just didn't make the cut :)

The Californian's lights were actually included by the special effects team in a number of scenes. Unsurprisingly, they get drowned out so as to be effectively invisible



We are all friends here so maybe we just let this one drop. It seems like I owe Warspite a pint for my dislike for Celine - I am happy to pay that price.

Best,
Frank

< Message edited by fcooke -- 9/18/2019 10:14:47 PM >

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 72
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/18/2019 10:16:19 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 435
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As long we don't have to listen to Celine during the pint.....

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 73
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/18/2019 10:32:08 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 2464
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

As long we don't have to listen to Celine during the pint.....


+1

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 74
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/18/2019 10:52:06 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 435
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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 75
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/18/2019 10:54:36 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 40178
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/5569954.titanic-apology-from-film-director/

Took me literally two second to google that.

warspite1

Yeah it looks like it too. If you are seeking to prove that Cameron issued an apology it would be helpful if you actually printed an apology......good luck with finding that. Apologies tend to have the word apology within the sentence and a few less 'probably's' wouldn't have gone amiss either as they tend to lessen one's feeling of culpability. As I said - mealy words - no real apology.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As for the specific decision to use "limey" for a Scottish character, I think it's acceptable to use in a ship that was overwhelmingly crewed from Southampton.

warspite1

I can't believe you've missed the point so wildly. It's not about the Scottish officer. It's about the Irish steerage class passenger's use of the word and the audience its pandering to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As I've said above, a unknown character adds little. With Murdoch, we get a very bitter resolution to a tragic character.

warspite1

Nonsense. An unknown character still conveys the situation, the hopelessness, the desperation. And you don't know - and nor does Cameron - that Murdoch was a tragic character. Just because he's taken one interpretation of events and added his own 'facts' that doesn't mean he's correct. Ever consider that Murdoch didn't take a bribe, didn't shoot two unarmed passengers and didn't shoot himself???? (and there is no proof he did any of these things). Ever consider that he was an officer, responsible for getting passengers into lifeboats, and that he did that job bravely, to the best of his ability, and acted selflessly in the interests of others, despite being fully aware he was unlikely to see another sunrise?

Cameron did not need to accuse someone - a real person - of something that there is no proof for. You mentioned you had family that fought at Cassino. How would you feel if a film is made of the battle that depicts a British soldier shooting unarmed Italian civilians in cold blood. Except it wasn't just any British soldier - they named your relative as being the soldier that carried out the act; name, rank and serial number. No proof - but then apparently the Court of Hollywood doesn't need any. Not very pleasant is it? But you'd be happy with that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As for the situation below decks, it was likely absolute chaos:

warspite1

Agreed on the chaos front and what was meant to happen and what did happen I won't comment on. However the gates were in place for a reason - and not the reason the film portrayed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Actually, they didn't. It just didn't make the cut :)

The Californian's lights were actually included by the special effects team in a number of scenes. Unsurprisingly, they get drowned out so as to be effectively invisible

warspite1

Can only laugh at that sorry. Here is a guy you are praising because he doesn't want a single star in the sky out of place - and yet one of THE key elements in the death of 1,500 people are the actions of Captain Lord and the SS Californian - and it somehow fails to make the cut.... Every single one of Titanic's officers and crew could - nay should - have been saved but sadly sods law conspired to make it not happen. To not mention the role of the Californian in the story, that this guy supposedly sweated over to make sure it was realistic, is simply unforgivable and completely detracts from any pretence that the story is an accurate representation.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/19/2019 12:13:50 AM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 76
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/18/2019 11:06:35 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 40178
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

As long we don't have to listen to Celine during the pint.....
warspite1

No taste

But I'll take a pint o' pish off you - thanks


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 77
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 12:22:34 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2389
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

Yeah it looks like it too. If you are seeking to prove that Cameron issued an apology it would be helpful if you actually printed an apology......good luck with finding that. Apologies tend to have the word apology within the sentence and a few less 'probably's' wouldn't have gone amiss either as they tend to lessen one's feeling of culpability.


Tangent: I am reminded of the exchange we had a few years back on Japanese apologies for their conduct during WW2.

Back on topic:

quote:

As I said - mealy words - no real apology.


There was actually a donation to his memorial fund, so wrong on that count.

quote:

I can't believe you've missed the point so wildly. It's not about the Scottish officer. It's about the Irish steerage class passenger's use of the word and the audience its pandering to.


Ship owned by a English shipping company based in Liverpool (with a English director) and crewed in a large part by natives of Southampton.

Oh, and Ryan (the Irish character), who doesn't interact with Murdoch prior to this scene, makes the wild assumption that he's English?

That the line you're going for?

quote:

Nonsense. An unknown character still conveys the situation, the hopelessness, the desperation. And you don't know - and nor does Cameron - that Murdoch was a tragic character. Just because he's taken one interpretation of events and added his own 'facts' that doesn't mean he's correct. Ever consider that Murdoch didn't take a bribe, didn't shoot two unarmed passengers and didn't shoot himself???? (and there is no proof he did any of these things). Ever consider that he was an officer, responsible for getting passengers into lifeboats, and that he did that job bravely, to the best of his ability, and acted in the interests of others, despite being fully aware he was unlikely to see another sunrise?


A more detailed study of developments following the collision actually highlights that Murdoch was far more proficient at launch lifeboats on his side of the ship that his colleagues on the opposite side.

You can find out more on this by watching the Nat Geo documentary, involving James Cameron :)

quote:

Cameron did not need to accuse someone - a real person - of something that there is no proof for. You mentioned you had family that fought at Cassino. How would you feel if a film is made of the battle that depicts a British soldier shooting unarmed Italian civilians in cold blood. Except it wasn't just any British soldier - they named your relative as being the soldier that carried out the act; name, rank and serial number. No proof - but then apparently the Court of Hollywood doesn't need any. Not very pleasant is it? But you'd be happy with that?


Argumentum ad passions aside (yes had to Google that one to check) this is why we have libel laws, and the defences associated with them.

FWIW, I have no issue separating X the historical person from X the character.

quote:

Agreed on the chaos front and what was meant to happen and what did happen I won't comment on. However the gates were in place for a reason - and not the reason the film portrayed.


Well, it's worth noting the gates existed to contain third class passengers for the purposes of disease and immigration had they ever reached America.

quote:

Can only laugh at that sorry. Here is a guy you are praising because he doesn't want a single star in the sky out of place - and yet one of THE key elements in the death of 1,500 people are the actions of Captain Lord and the SS Californian - and it somehow fails to make the cut.... Every single one of Titanic's officers and crew could - nay should - have been saved but sadly sods law conspired to make it not happen. To not mention the role of the Californian in the story, that this guy supposedly sweated over to make sure it was realistic, is simply unforgivable and completely detracts from any pretence that the story is an accurate representation.


I actually think it was a sensible decision to cut Lord and the Californian. Elsewise it becomes easy to attribute "blame" (for want of a better word) on the tragedy, when in fact the root cause was pure hubris.

Given that the context of the story that has to fit within the confines of a feature movie, the omission of the Californian makes sense. Just can't squeeze everything into a movie, sadly. Thankfully, we've books for that.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 78
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 7:14:02 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 40178
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Tangent: I am reminded of the exchange we had a few years back on Japanese apologies for their conduct during WW2.

warspite1

If you have something to say then please say it. Cryptic and, on their own, meaningless comments like that neither help nor further the current debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Back on topic:

There was actually a donation to his memorial fund, so wrong on that count.

warspite1

How much did Titanic make? What was the donation? But its not about money. It's about reputation - its about rubbishing someone's existence. How little would it have cost - but how much more would it have meant to have added a proper apology to the DVD? Sadly TV and Film are for many people, their history. They know what happened on Titanic cos they seen the film.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Ship owned by a English shipping company based in Liverpool (with a English director) and crewed in a large part by natives of Southampton.

Oh, and Ryan (the Irish character), who doesn't interact with Murdoch prior to this scene, makes the wild assumption that he's English?

That the line you're going for?

warspite1

Limey's as far as I'm aware, aren't necessarily English. They are British. Limey is an American slang term for British sailors. The Irish have their own words for Britons. Why did Mr I'm-so-desperate-to-get-this-film-right-I'm-going-to-personally-place-every-star-in-the-sky Cameron feel the need for Tommy (an Irish Character) to use an American slang term for the British before being shot, unarmed, while pleading for the chance to live (as though the actions of Murdoch were the cause of that situation )?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

A more detailed study of developments following the collision actually highlights that Murdoch was far more proficient at launch lifeboats on his side of the ship that his colleagues on the opposite side.

warspite1

...and was this fact - and Murdoch's contribution - highlighted in the film? Or did Cameron simply choose to highlight the bribe taking going on so that he could have his dramatic ending?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Argumentum ad passions aside (yes had to Google that one to check) this is why we have libel laws, and the defences associated with them.

warspite1

How did the libel laws defend Murdoch? So you wouldn't have any problem with a film director depicting your relative as a civilian murderer in WWII Italy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Well, it's worth noting the gates existed to contain third class passengers for the purposes of disease and immigration had they ever reached America.

warspite1

Yes, it is worth noting. But not in the film because there, the gates have a far better purpose, right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I actually think it was a sensible decision to cut Lord and the Californian. Elsewise it becomes easy to attribute "blame" (for want of a better word) on the tragedy, when in fact the root cause was pure hubris.

Given that the context of the story that has to fit within the confines of a feature movie, the omission of the Californian makes sense. Just can't squeeze everything into a movie, sadly. Thankfully, we've books for that.

warspite1

But I thought Cameron was being praised for "his attempts to get the story as close to the truth as possible". The Californian is a big part of the story and for the story teller, she's a godsend because she presents the audience with such hope.... only for that hope to disappear in a I-want-to-throw-something-at-the screen type way.

But no, he's no different to any other story maker with an angle. A Night to Remember managed to fit this hugely important episode into its confines - but in order to push his own agenda Cameron believed it acceptable to cut Californian out. There was no reason for the Hubris element to have got lost with Californian added in, but I guess Cameron didn't want to take the chance on his audience not being able to understand his angle. Bit like the cheap and obvious use of Tommy....




< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/19/2019 7:20:57 AM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 79
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 8:45:10 AM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 487
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From: Not all there
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How about we just add Titanic to the TMTSNBN list. And perhaps Celine Dion to the TSTSNBH list.

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Post #: 80
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 9:23:56 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 435
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From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
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I'm all for that....though Warspite seems to favor her for some odd reason.....

The pint should be shared with background music from:

The Stones
The Who
The Police
U2
UB40
Marley
Cranberries
Pogues
Etc.

I should hit London next year.

(in reply to Buckrock)
Post #: 81
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 1:52:10 PM   
Lovejoy


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/16/2015
Status: online
Getting back to Midway, I think I'll go see it. The air CGI scenes that people have mentioned are concerning, but as I've said elsewhere, the CGI-ships seem correct for class and period. Yorktown Class CVs that actually look like Yorktown Class CVs, and I spotted a Northampton Class CA that looked pretty good. No movie is entirely accurate, and even the 1976 Midway film (one of my favorites) used footage from different battles that was noticeably not from the actual battle (A Hellcat crashing aboard an Essex-class CV). Maybe the best we can hope for is that the directors don't butcher things too badly.

I'll also give Roland Emmerich the benefit of the doubt as far as making a good movie goes; I've enjoyed a lot of his films.

I just hope this movie doesn't make me hate Woody Harrelson. I didn't think he'd make a good Nimitz when his role was announced, but after watching him in The Highwaymen with Kevin Costner, I have a little more confidence.

< Message edited by Lovejoy -- 9/19/2019 1:53:08 PM >

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 82
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 2:11:21 PM   
Kursk1943


Posts: 281
Joined: 3/15/2014
From: Bavaria in Southern Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovejoy

Getting back to Midway, I think I'll go see it. The air CGI scenes that people have mentioned are concerning, but as I've said elsewhere, the CGI-ships seem correct for class and period. Yorktown Class CVs that actually look like Yorktown Class CVs, and I spotted a Northampton Class CA that looked pretty good. No movie is entirely accurate, and even the 1976 Midway film (one of my favorites) used footage from different battles that was noticeably not from the actual battle (A Hellcat crashing aboard an Essex-class CV). Maybe the best we can hope for is that the directors don't butcher things too badly.

I'll also give Roland Emmerich the benefit of the doubt as far as making a good movie goes; I've enjoyed a lot of his films.

I just hope this movie doesn't make me hate Woody Harrelson. I didn't think he'd make a good Nimitz when his role was announced, but after watching him in The Highwaymen with Kevin Costner, I have a little more confidence.


1+!

(in reply to Lovejoy)
Post #: 83
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 2:45:28 PM   
RangerJoe


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I see that it is done by a Chinese company so maybe there won't be as much of a Hollywood twist.

I also see that its release date is November 8th. I wonder, if like the movie Fury, if it would be free for US Veterans on Veteran's Day. That would be a nice gesture . . .

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Kursk1943)
Post #: 84
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 8:33:34 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2389
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

If you have something to say then please say it. Cryptic and, on their own, meaningless comments like that neither help nor further the current debate.


The context, as I roughly remember, was that you were sceptical of the sincerity of Japanese apologies for war crimes, despite there being an extensive list of apologies made by the Japanese state.

quote:

How much did Titanic make? What was the donation? But its not about money. It's about reputation - its about rubbishing someone's existence. How little would it have cost - but how much more would it have meant to have added a proper apology to the DVD? Sadly TV and Film are for many people, their history. They know what happened on Titanic cos they seen the film.


Worth considering.

quote:

Limey's as far as I'm aware, aren't necessarily English. They are British. Limey is an American slang term for British sailors. The Irish have their own words for Britons. Why did Mr I'm-so-desperate-to-get-this-film-right-I'm-going-to-personally-place-every-star-in-the-sky Cameron feel the need for Tommy (an Irish Character) to use an American slang term for the British before being shot, unarmed, while pleading for the chance to live (as though the actions of Murdoch were the cause of that situation )?


Unrelated, what would have been your preferred term, were you the screenwriter trying to find a reasonable term that would be understood on the mass market?

quote:


...and was this fact - and Murdoch's contribution - highlighted in the film? Or did Cameron simply choose to highlight the bribe taking going on so that he could have his dramatic ending?


I think they may mention it in the above documentary, but I think it only emerged fairly recently (in Titanic terms) as a detailed analysis of lifeboat procedures was done.

quote:

Yes, it is worth noting. But not in the film because there, the gates have a far better purpose, right?


They served a dramatic purpose in the film, and I've provided evidence that at least one gate was in fact closed during the sinking.

Now, I'll concede that the pistol-whipping and the like was perhaps too far, but below decks on Titanic must have been absolute pandemonium given the circumstances.

quote:

How did the libel laws defend Murdoch? So you wouldn't have any problem with a film director depicting your relative as a civilian murderer in WWII Italy?


Having read into it, I'm actually wrong about libel, the law only applies to the living.

Makes interesting reading.
quote:


I would have no issue with what you propose. You have no reputation when you're dead (nor are you likely to be bothered about it, you're dead!).

Personally, I find the notion of the descendants of deceased persons fastidiously defending the reputation of their deceased relatives quite bizarre. Even more so in cases where there is some historical debate as to their reputation (say, Stalin as linked above).

To be completely reductionist on the case of Murdoch, there's no solid proof to refute an artistic re-telling of historical events.

quote:

But I thought Cameron was being praised for "his attempts to get the story as close to the truth as possible". The Californian is a big part of the story and for the story teller, she's a godsend because she presents the audience with such hope.... only for that hope to disappear in a I-want-to-throw-something-at-the screen type way.


You may as well ask to add another four hours to the story and have it start in Belfast with the laying of the keel.

quote:


But no, he's no different to any other story maker with an angle. A Night to Remember managed to fit this hugely important episode into its confines - but in order to push his own agenda Cameron believed it acceptable to cut Californian out. There was no reason for the Hubris element to have got lost with Californian added in, but I guess Cameron didn't want to take the chance on his audience not being able to understand his angle. Bit like the cheap and obvious use of Tommy....


Understandable, in my view given that Cameron was likely interested in making his own film and not dogmatically following A Night to Remember.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 85
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 9:13:02 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 2464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
quote:


quote:

Limey's as far as I'm aware, aren't necessarily English. They are British. Limey is an American slang term for British sailors. The Irish have their own words for Britons. Why did Mr I'm-so-desperate-to-get-this-film-right-I'm-going-to-personally-place-every-star-in-the-sky Cameron feel the need for Tommy (an Irish Character) to use an American slang term for the British before being shot, unarmed, while pleading for the chance to live (as though the actions of Murdoch were the cause of that situation )?


Unrelated, what would have been your preferred term, were you the screenwriter trying to find a reasonable term that would be understood on the mass market?


Actually, it is related. How would he have known that term and how it came to be? How about the term Cousin Jack, do you know what that means?

quote:

I would have no issue with what you propose. You have no reputation when you're dead (nor are you likely to be bothered about it, you're dead!).

Personally, I find the notion of the descendants of deceased persons fastidiously defending the reputation of their deceased relatives quite bizarre. Even more so in cases where there is some historical debate as to their reputation (say, Stalin as linked above).

To be completely reductionist on the case of Murdoch, there's no solid proof to refute an artistic re-telling of historical events.


I don't find it bizarre. It is the same thing as getting a medal for a military person, living or deceased, long after the event has occurred. It refers to family honor, or is that a foreign concept to where you are?

quote:

quote:


But no, he's no different to any other story maker with an angle. A Night to Remember managed to fit this hugely important episode into its confines - but in order to push his own agenda Cameron believed it acceptable to cut Californian out. There was no reason for the Hubris element to have got lost with Californian added in, but I guess Cameron didn't want to take the chance on his audience not being able to understand his angle. Bit like the cheap and obvious use of Tommy....


Understandable, in my view given that Cameron was likely interested in making his own film and not dogmatically following A Night to Remember.


The Californian shutting off the wireless set, from what I saw in the clip, showed one very important reason for the death toll to be so high. Another ship to rescue survivors would have helped a lot.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 86
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 9:30:25 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2389
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:


Actually, it is related. How would he have known that term and how it came to be? How about the term Cousin Jack, do you know what that means?


I was meaning in the context of a term that would communicate the message and tone and be understood in a broad enough setting.

quote:

I don't find it bizarre. It is the same thing as getting a medal for a military person, living or deceased, long after the event has occurred. It refers to family honor, or is that a foreign concept to where you are?


I'm aware of the concept of family honor, and I find it a very disagreeable concept given that it often clashes with individual freedom and choices.

quote:


The Californian shutting off the wireless set, from what I saw in the clip, showed one very important reason for the death toll to be so high. Another ship to rescue survivors would have helped a lot.


Nobody is disputing that, but it was cut from the (already very long) film for time constraints. Had it been practical it would no doubt have been included.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 87
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 10:00:56 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 2464
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
quote:


quote:

I don't find it bizarre. It is the same thing as getting a medal for a military person, living or deceased, long after the event has occurred. It refers to family honor, or is that a foreign concept to where you are?


I'm aware of the concept of family honor, and I find it a very disagreeable concept given that it often clashes with individual freedom and choices.


In other words, you have no family honor and are not proud of what your ancestors have done in the past.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 88
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 10:02:38 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 5742
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Limey is an American slang term for British sailors.


Haven't read this whole thread, so this is just a little side note.

I've heard the term originated because of the limes' the Brits used in their cocktails. Add to that the practice seems to have originate in malarial regions when the British used it to counteract their distaste for the quinine in their drinks. Don't know if that's true, but at any rate there it is.

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Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 89
RE: Semi OT: 2nd Trailer for "Midway" movie... - 9/19/2019 11:02:40 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 2464
Joined: 11/16/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Limey is an American slang term for British sailors.


Haven't read this whole thread, so this is just a little side note.

I've heard the term originated because of the limes' the Brits used in their cocktails. Add to that the practice seems to have originate in malarial regions when the British used it to counteract their distaste for the quinine in their drinks. Don't know if that's true, but at any rate there it is.


I heard it in reference to the British sailors who had to drink the juice of one lemon or lime a day to eliminate scurvy. That is why the British sailors are referred to Limeys.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 90
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