Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/5/2019 2:28:00 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 3944
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
It was my understanding that the Luftwaffe 88mm guns on the East Front were pulled by a SdKfz 7 not by horses. Can someone point me to where they were commonly pulled by horses as part of a Luftwaffe unit?

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Post #: 1
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/5/2019 5:21:27 PM   
VHauser


Posts: 251
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline
Never. It would be like that old movie, The Pride and the Passion, trying to move an 88 with horses. Doctrine is another reason 88s weren't horse drawn. The Germans often used the concept of "fire brigades" to act as fast response. Often the anti-tank battalion was the only motorized unit in an infantry division--fire brigade. Same with 88s. They were often used as fire brigades.

However, scenario designers are not forced to make 88s motorized. The game allows 88s to be horse drawn, which, although historically ridiculous, is not prohibited.

"Should" 88s be forced to be motorized? I say no. I think that players themselves will police the scenarios they play. They will cry, "Foul!" to any scenario designer foolish enough to have horse-drawn 88s. And who knows? Maybe there was a case or two (even though I haven't heard of any) where horses were indeed used to move 88s in desperate/emergency situations. With the right conditions, I guess a team of 6-8 heavy draft horses could pull an 88. I know they pulled 150mm howitzers, so an 88 isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Anyway, I think 88s pulled by horses is a non-issue.

But, to answer your question directly, I can't think of any Luftwaffe 88 units being horse drawn--always motorized.


< Message edited by VHauser -- 9/5/2019 5:24:01 PM >


_____________________________

Member since May 2000 (as VictorHauser)

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 2
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/5/2019 5:52:12 PM   
VHauser


Posts: 251
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline
I just did a quick search. The 88mm flak had a weight of around 8 tons. The 150mm sFH 18 had a weight of around 7 tons. So, heavy-horse teams could theoretically pull 88mm flak guns. The physical size of the 88s would make pulling more challenging, but I still think it's possible.

< Message edited by VHauser -- 9/5/2019 5:53:20 PM >


_____________________________

Member since May 2000 (as VictorHauser)

(in reply to VHauser)
Post #: 3
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/5/2019 6:14:20 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 3944
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
I'm in the same camp. It's very historically inaccurate. Unless someone wanted to somehow limit movement. But I think there would be better ways to do that. The Soviets motorized all of their heavy AAA units also.



_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to VHauser)
Post #: 4
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/5/2019 9:11:51 PM   
VHauser


Posts: 251
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline
Also, the 88 flak had a crew of 11, while the sFH 18 had a crew of 8. So, moving the crew was also an issue. The prime mover the Germans typically used to tow 88s was also robust enough to carry the crew. Not sure a heavy-horse team could handle that extra weight while pulling an 88.

And if I recall, the 88 flak was designed to have a quick mount. It allowed them to deploy from their prime movers ready-to-fire in a few minutes. Not sure if horse-drawn 88s would be as agile, and that might make the difference between life and death.

In other words, I can think of every reason to motorize my 88s, and no reason (except a desperate emergency) to move my 88s with horses. [Now I need to get back to work on my scenario.]

_____________________________

Member since May 2000 (as VictorHauser)

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 5
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/6/2019 9:01:41 AM   
LeeChard

 

Posts: 1058
Joined: 9/12/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline
Maybe in desperation as fuel became increasingly dear late in the war?

(in reply to VHauser)
Post #: 6
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/6/2019 7:53:49 PM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline
The heavy artillery was motorized and later mechanized. Horses were not used for towing them but during particular bad weather conditions (muddy roads) they were used as additional resource to get them out of the mud or snow. Of course because of the weight of Flak 36 it was rather a rare thing.

_____________________________

Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

(in reply to LeeChard)
Post #: 7
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/7/2019 10:30:16 AM   
VHauser


Posts: 251
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline
There is a game reason not to use horses to pull 88s. The first image below is a fully-motorized flak battalion. The second image uses horses in addition to trucks.
Notice that the fully-motorized battalion moves 25. Notice that the battalion that uses horses moves 24, almost as fast as the fully-motorized battalion. However, the battalion that uses horses also uses 'foot movement', which means it can go off-road into mountains and badlands and swamps, etc., places the fully-motorized battalion often can't go at all. So, unless you want your flak battalions to be mountain artillery, don't use horses.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Member since May 2000 (as VictorHauser)

(in reply to gliz2)
Post #: 8
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/7/2019 11:39:32 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4150
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VHauser
Notice that the battalion that uses horses moves 24, almost as fast as the fully-motorized battalion. However, the battalion that uses horses also uses 'foot movement', which means it can go off-road into mountains and badlands and swamps, etc., places the fully-motorized battalion often can't go at all.

I see that you're using "fast horses", which are meant to represent cavalry, which of course will be quite mobile. For the purposes of this exercise, it seems that you should be using "slow horses" (or similar name), which is meant to represent wagons.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 9/7/2019 11:40:33 AM >

(in reply to VHauser)
Post #: 9
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/7/2019 2:33:01 PM   
VHauser


Posts: 251
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I see that you're using "fast horses", which are meant to represent cavalry, which of course will be quite mobile. For the purposes of this exercise, it seems that you should be using "slow horses" (or similar name), which is meant to represent wagons.


Okay, here is what happens when you use "slow horses". You move 22 instead of 24. Of course, you could say, "Why are you using trucks?" Which brings me to the point I was trying to make.

Luftwaffe flak units were fully motorized. No horses. And then came the discussion where horses "could" be theoretically used, right? And then came, what about when the Germans run out of gas? And that is when I posted what happens when you start messing around with horses pulling 88s. Who cares whether they are fast or slow horses? Why on earth would you be designing units with horses pulling 88s in the first place?

What makes horses better at pulling 88s into badlands, swamps, mountains, etc., than trucks? TOAW, that's what.

If you want to simulate lack of fuel for late-war flak battalions, then reduce the number of trucks to lower the speed, thus still keeping the unit motorized (which means off-road/motorized restrictions).

My point is that using horses to pull 88s in TOAW creates ridiculous situations. Simply adjust the number of trucks if necessary.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Member since May 2000 (as VictorHauser)

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 10
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/7/2019 5:35:46 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 3944
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
The basis for my question was because I am playing a scenario where every Luftwaffe Flak unit is horse drawn. No trucks. I already know that this is pure fiction. I was wondering more why that would be done. The ability to traverse terrain is likely the most reasonable explanation. It isn't something I would do but it's not my scenario.

Trucks and Light Transport are divided by 4 and rounded up.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lobster -- 9/7/2019 5:42:07 PM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to VHauser)
Post #: 11
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/7/2019 6:44:08 PM   
VHauser


Posts: 251
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
The basis for my question was because I am playing a scenario where every Luftwaffe Flak unit is horse drawn. No trucks. I already know that this is pure fiction. I was wondering more why that would be done. The ability to traverse terrain is likely the most reasonable explanation. It isn't something I would do but it's not my scenario.


It might be the most reasonable explanation, but for a ridiculous premise in the first place. Why are pack mules and horses used in bad terrain? Because they are transporting specialized/lightweight equipment that can be broken down into small loads. But there is no way that 88s are capable of being broken down into pack loads. Ridiculous. And that's why the only time you'll see actual 88s in bad terrain is on a road.

I can think of no justification that says, "It's easier to pull 88s into badlands using horses instead of trucks." That's simply not true. And just because TOAW allows it to be so does not make it reality. And scenario designers should know that.


_____________________________

Member since May 2000 (as VictorHauser)

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 12
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/7/2019 9:56:03 PM   
VHauser


Posts: 251
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline
And another thing. 88s are best when they have wide fields of fire. Any commander stupid enough to drag his 88s into bad terrain would probably be court-martialed (or worse).

General Wolff: What were you thinking when you dragged your 88s into that swamp while the enemy T-34s were advancing across the open ground to the north?
Major Dummkopf: There were reports of partisan activity to the south, Herr General.
General Wolff: And you decided that the partisans in the swamp were more dangerous than the enemy tank brigade?
Major Dummkopf: Yes, Herr General.
General Wolff: Private Asch, give me your rifle...

_____________________________

Member since May 2000 (as VictorHauser)

(in reply to VHauser)
Post #: 13
RE: Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? - 9/8/2019 1:39:34 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 3944
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VHauser


General Wolff: Private Asch, give me your rifle...




_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to VHauser)
Post #: 14
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> Luftwaffe 88 Flak Pulled By Horses? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.131