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Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Council room

 
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Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Council room - 9/5/2019 12:15:38 PM   
jdsrae


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From: The Land Downunder
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I've just agreed to start my first PBEM vs CrackSabbath who already has a few notches on his belt.
Neither of us can commit to a turn/day so it will be a relatively slow paced game.

The settings are shown below, intended to be a free play ahistoric game with the only rules being what the 1s and 0s allow.

With an ahistoric start the allies get to issue orders before turn 1, which means:
1. Allied ships can be ordered out of port and they will move out before the air orders are resolved, so that obviously raises serious questions about Pearl Harbour or Manila port strikes.
2. Allied air groups will still suffer penalties due to Dec 7th Surprise setting, but I expect that all allied airgroups will perform a lot better than historic first turn with surprise on, as they will probably have increased CAP %s or naval search / strike orders
3. Allied land units will probably also steal a 1/2 day march on wherever they want to move to.

I haven't played the AI with these settings before so it will be interesting to see what happens when we run turn 1.
Both of us are going to take a bit of time to enter our turn 1 orders so it might be a week or two before this kicks off.

I won't have time for a day by day AAR, but I might do a weekly or monthly summary.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 9/6/2019 2:45:27 AM >


_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655
Post #: 1
RE: IJ AAR Scenario 1: Gensui jdsrae vs CrackSabbath (a... - 9/5/2019 2:03:31 PM   
RangerJoe


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Allied or Japanese side?

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: IJ AAR Scenario 1: Gensui jdsrae vs CrackSabbath (a... - 9/5/2019 5:40:34 PM   
CrackSabbath


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jdsrae is playing the Japanese side. I'm one of those pesky APO types (i.e. lazy).



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RE: IJ AAR Scenario 1: Gensui jdsrae vs CrackSabbath (a... - 9/6/2019 2:43:13 AM   
jdsrae


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27 Nov 1941
I’ve called an emergency session of the War Council with GEN Sugiyama and ADM Yamamoto to figure out wtf to do now that the allies seem to have sniffed out our Pearl Harbour raid.
The Foreign Minister just advised that we have reached the point of no return as far as negotiations go with the allies so I hope they bring a copy of their respective Operation B-GO plans...
More to follow.

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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RE: IJ AAR Scenario 1: Gensui jdsrae vs CrackSabbath (a... - 9/6/2019 8:18:43 AM   
CaptBeefheart


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CrackSabbath: Will you be doing an AAR or is that like too much work for the Dude?

Cheers,
CB

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Now closed to CrackSabbath please - 9/6/2019 8:54:18 AM   
jdsrae


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The Dude mentioned via email he probably doesn’t have time to do an in-character AAR like his last one but might do a weekly summary.
Now that I’m about to start entering orders I’ll ask that he doesn’t drop in here anymore

My biggest issue is trying to figure out what to do with KB for turn 1 whereas his is trying to figure out what to do with all the BBs at Pearl.
My cunning plan might be to leave him with so many big gas guzzling ships that he just can’t fuel them all!

I’m trying to second guess him now... I can’t see him leaving the BBs in port, but will he move them away from Pearl?
Maybe to a nearby Port to disband? If I try to hunt them with KB I fear I’ll just be punching at shadows and wasting fuel and time.
He’ll be trying to second guess me too. So much more interesting than the AI already!
I’m going to start entering orders tonight but might not finish this weekend.

I’m leaning towards keeping operations nice and tight for the first few months but I think I need to quickly setup search and strike on the Pacific flank to try and spot if the US Pacific Fleet is trying to move to the DEI. That’s going to be tough with the distances to cover though...

Contributions from the General Staff always welcome.

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 9/6/2019 8:57:45 AM >


_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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RE: Now closed to CrackSabbath please - 9/6/2019 9:53:38 AM   
RangerJoe


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Test this first but instead of Pearl Harbor, make deep raids into SoPac to cut off the supply lines to New Zealand and Australia. Of course, you can also go the North Pacific route and try to take Canada via Prince Rupert and through the mountains to provide bombing bases against US Cities and infrastructure. As long as you do no invade the US or take the southern most base of Vancouver Island, the US gets no emergency reinforcements.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: Now closed to CrackSabbath please - 9/6/2019 10:55:00 AM   
Hanzberger


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I would do a couple of tests, maybe position the KB to the SE of pearl. I think you still need to strike Pearl~! In the SE you would still have an escape route. I would also redo everything almost as far as AMP landings. Takes a lot of time but you really need to do this. With no HR's you are in control here from the beginning. Any units bought out can now be used outside of China and should be. Bomb Manilla's port to hell. Make sure you move those Mb's off the home Island to the party...Make sure you redo the KB also as far as how the DB and TB are setup on a couple of carriers. If my memory is still functioning I believe you have experience.

Wait does he get magic moves with all his ships or will they just be out at sea?

< Message edited by Hanzberger -- 9/6/2019 10:56:47 AM >


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RE: Now closed to CrackSabbath please - 9/6/2019 11:04:46 AM   
Hanzberger


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Are you going for Mersing? Maybe even Pal? What's your R+D look like? I am very interested in this AAR, been a long time since I played. Curious as to what the Allied player can do without HR's. I think you guys should have played Scen 2 maybe.

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Japan AC wire chart here
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2769286&mpage=1&key=?

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RE: Now closed to CrackSabbath please - 9/6/2019 12:55:24 PM   
jdsrae


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I only know scenario 1 so wanted it for my first pbem.
No time for test runs, I need to start entering orders or we’ll never start!
I’m not planning anything too radical with the aim to capture the SRA without taking heavy losses, then assess where to after that based on the opening few months.
I will definitely be going through every unit plus setup as much industry as possible on turn 1.

The allies can change orders before turn 1 runs, so if I was him I’d move everything from PH to Lahaina or Hilo.
I really don’t think I can guess his move, or whether he will send them further S and just leave them at sea.

With 8 x US BBs likely to be in play from 8 Dec I don’t think I can afford to lose any of my BBs or CAs early with a magic move Mersing, especially as he will have POW and Repulse somewhere safe.

He will probably send his CVs S or SE too. I am thinking about KB in 4th Fleet area to try and block him coming west, but he could just sit and let me waste fuel patrolling with them for a month. KB could cover early Wake/Guam invasions and I’m thinking about a really early Midway just to see if that draws him out to fight. I need to find a decent land unit but if I took Modway early he’d have to be tempted to use his BBs to try and bombard it which might give me a chance to sink a few.

But then I think that my main effort needs to be the shores of the South China Sea to capture oil and fuel sources, so I might be better using KB there after flattening Manila, then get it quickly over to support Mindanao / Celebes ops and perhaps push to SEAF/4F after that.

I think I’ll just start entering industry and Army orders in China as that won’t change!

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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RE: Now closed to CrackSabbath please - 9/6/2019 7:27:35 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

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One very minor change to the Malaya invasion could drastically increase the speed of your conquest.

Land a tank regiment (or 2) at Patani instead of Singora. It can quickly cross the peninsula and capture Georgetown. From Singora to Alor Star you move slowly on the RR track/trail.

If you want to land at Mersing early, all of 5 Div units are loaded on transports at Samah, but they are in various TFs going various places. You need to be meticulous in reorganizing all division elements into the same TF, but it can be done. Do NOT unload anything to do this, as you'll lose several days. Send artillery and some tanks with them, too. If you reorganize into one of the "magic move" TFs, you can land at Mersing on Dec 7. I would not advise that due to uncertainty with Force Z, but landing there on Dec 9 or 10 is certainly possible, and without "magic".

That's my 2 cents.

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RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/6/2019 7:43:24 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

I haven't played the AI with these settings before so it will be interesting to see what happens when we run turn 1.



You can't play the AI with these settings and get to issue orders to Allied units on December 7th.. Surprise ON versus the AI means the Allied player doesn't get to issue any orders until December 8th.

The only way for the Allied player to be able to issue orders on December 7th against the AI is to play with No Surprise.


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RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/6/2019 9:37:44 PM   
jdsrae


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I nearly finished industry orders last night, just need to resize as many aircraft research to size 30 as supply allows and set the supply toggles so I can finish this next turn, then its done.

I’ll then start issuing orders to Army then Navy, as let’s face it, now that Yamamoto is on the train back to Kure, the role of the IJN is to support the IJA. Air units will receive their orders after that in support of their local operations.

I do have a plan to reshuffle amphibious task forces that I will tweak from my last game vs AI to get myself organised.
It does already involve trying to get the scattered Divisions back together.
My target before crossing the causeway into Singapore is for 3 x full Divisions as I have to assume he will implement a Brave Sir Robin until recon tells me otherwise. I’ll see if I have a sketch of the Malaya and Luzon plans to post tonight.

Busy Saturday here in real life before I can get back to this but it’s good to get started!

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/6/2019 11:16:29 PM   
RangerJoe


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You will not have to pay the 1000 supply cost for the research factory repair unit it is actually done and for later aircraft, that can be a long time. Reminder, don't expand your research engine factories by more than 30 as you won't get research until they are finished and I don't believe that they will provide more than 1 research point per day (although I may be incorrect on this!) The engine factories will repair one point per day, costing 1000 supply per point repaired.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 12:52:06 AM   
Hanzberger


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I would save your R+D separately. Just in case you change your mind when moving your units into position. I would use the LB's for Manilla.
Do the Allies get any magic moves? If not then those battle wagons can't be more then 9 hex out right? I would go for Pal~!

< Message edited by Hanzberger -- 9/7/2019 12:54:51 AM >


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Planning for #17 Ironman Tier2

Japan AC wire chart here
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RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 1:27:23 AM   
RangerJoe


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Yes, see just how far the significant portions of the Allied fleets can move and attack accordingly. Miri, Brunei, Tarakan, Kendari, Rabaul, Noumea, Fiji . . .

See if you can wipe out LBA by invasions as well.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 1:34:43 AM   
jdsrae


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No magic moves for the allies that I’m aware of, so yes I could plot a radius on where his ships will move.
I won’t do that exactly but I have a mental picture.
Most likely is he will do some hit and run off Luzon and in the DEI and maybe the Marshalls.
Most dangerous in the DEI he combines all ABDA naval forces and sets a big ambush ala Obvert v Lowpe.
More dangerous if he gets the US BBs to the DEI fuel sources, I’ll check but somewhere like Soerabaja can probably rearm them...
I am starting to think my priority needs to be to hunt down and destroy the ABDA force while screening approaches from the Pacific.


_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 2:03:15 AM   
BillBrown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

I haven't played the AI with these settings before so it will be interesting to see what happens when we run turn 1.



You can't play the AI with these settings and get to issue orders to Allied units on December 7th.. Surprise ON versus the AI means the Allied player doesn't get to issue any orders until December 8th.

The only way for the Allied player to be able to issue orders on December 7th against the AI is to play with No Surprise.



This is totally wrong. Here is what happens for December 7th surprise on.

2.4.6 DECEMBER 7TH SURPRISE
If the player selects a scenario that begins on December 7th, 1941, this option may be selected.
When chosen, during the Morning Phase only on December 7, 1941, the following occurs to
represent Allied surprise:
»» Allied air units flying patrols (CAP, search, etc.) have a 50% chance of not flying any aircraft
»» If an air group passes this test and elects to fly, the number of aircraft that will fly is reduced by 75%
»» The Allies will launch no airstrikes
»» Japanese Naval TFs may have enhanced first turn movement, depending upon TF settings in the scenario (see Editor Manual for details)
»» Aircraft making a port attack during any December 7 phase will attack ships 100 percent of the time if there are at least 10 ships in the port
»» Aircraft hit on any Allied airfields suffer increased damage
»» Aircraft hit on any Allied ships suffer increased damage due to lack of Damage Control
»» Vary Setup option has been disabled for Admiral’s Edition.

Absolutely nothing about Allies not being able to input orders for December 7th.
I will say that the one in red is very important for an Allied player.

Please get your facts right Hans.

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RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 2:04:16 AM   
BillBrown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

No magic moves for the allies that I’m aware of, so yes I could plot a radius on where his ships will move.
I won’t do that exactly but I have a mental picture.
Most likely is he will do some hit and run off Luzon and in the DEI and maybe the Marshalls.
Most dangerous in the DEI he combines all ABDA naval forces and sets a big ambush ala Obvert v Lowpe.
More dangerous if he gets the US BBs to the DEI fuel sources, I’ll check but somewhere like Soerabaja can probably rearm them...
I am starting to think my priority needs to be to hunt down and destroy the ABDA force while screening approaches from the Pacific.



Remember that they will only move one phase, not two phases.

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RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 2:44:45 AM   
durnedwolf


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SCEN 1 means you have to ramp things up fast while on a tough budget. I just wanted to wish you both a great game.

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I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

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RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 3:21:44 AM   
jdsrae


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Remember that they will only move one phase, not two phases.


Cheers Bill

ABDA Flot can’t recombine on day 1 but they could concentrate within a week.

Here’s my outline plan for the IJN for the first week or two, subject to change of course!
I probably also need about a week to reorganise my task forces to the way I want them, to give me 3 x BB, 7 x CA and 7 x CL surface combat task forces.
If I commit all of these task forces to one Area Fleet I’ll leave myself open to raids, but if I try to cover all areas I won’t dominate anywhere.
SWAF probably just edges Southern “Area” Fleet as I’ll call it for priority one status. SAF is priority 2, plus a small reserve at home means SEAF, 4F and 5F need to fend for themselves with land based naval air. Probably too dangerous to send CA/CL out east without air cover with USN CVs and BBs on the loose.
I will probably use 2 x CV/CVL task forces in the western Pacific but keep them within mutual support range of each other to cover more search area. I’ll give them 2 x Kongos each for close protection.
I think the CVEs with a few CS will probably stay at home as an air training reserve to masquerade as a CV task force if he tries a Hokkaido raid.

Summary of IJA missions by Army HQ to follow, with only a few planned variations on historical at that level.

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 4:03:42 AM   
RangerJoe


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I would not think too much about defense if you have adequate search aircraft in the correct places along with a reserve of Betts/Nells and Zeros. He will not have the ships in the correct places, enough units to attack while trying to set up defensive bastions and a definitive shortage of aircraft carriers. Except for the Dauntless and the toughness of allied Wildcats, P-40s, and Hurricanes, your comparable aircraft are better with a longer range. You can control production, he can not. You have highly skilled pilots, he does not. He has to react to you, do not lay back with anything the first few turns. Until he concentrates his aircraft carriers, he will not have to capability to overwhelm your air defenses that you can quickly bring to bear, not to mention being able to attack his fleets from a farther away than he can attack you.

Once your invasions have captured airfields and you have repaired the damage, you can and should have the KB go "dark" which will leave him wondering where you will strike next.

_____________________________

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 22
RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 11:20:39 AM   
jdsrae


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Yes, see just how far the significant portions of the Allied fleets can move and attack accordingly. Miri, Brunei, Tarakan, Kendari, Rabaul, Noumea, Fiji . . .

See if you can wipe out LBA by invasions as well.


Cheers joe, I am planning to review and tweak the targets I used in my last AI game for my opening amphibious landings.
Miri/ Brunei are high priority for fuel and I think they are too far for Houston and Boise to interfere on day 1.
I’ll assign cover task forces and hope the Asiatic Fleet do visit on days 2,3 or 4...
I didn’t take any oil/fuel early last game vs the AI as I was waiting for AA Regts to move forward, but I will just have to risk the B-17Ds visiting Miri.
Miri will need some Zeros on CAP and an AA regt asap...

Industry orders are complete for turn 1.
Starting on Army orders now, I won’t finish them tonight.
Navy orders are probably a few days away yet so still time to ponder.

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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Post #: 23
RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 11:31:52 AM   
jdsrae


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From: The Land Downunder
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

I would save your R+D separately. Just in case you change your mind when moving your units into position. I would use the LB's for Manilla.
Do the Allies get any magic moves? If not then those battle wagons can't be more then 9 hex out right? I would go for Pal~!


Thanks Hanz
R&D is now set in the proverbial concrete. No changing my mind now without incurring HI and supply costs!
Happy to share some screenshots later to summarise if that’s if interest.
I’ve asked Yamamoto to prepare a Palembang operation plan for day 1 and I’ve given him 48 hours to report back

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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Post #: 24
RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 12:00:29 PM   
Hanzberger


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Don't forget to bomb the Port at Hong Kong day 1. Expect his DD's to move out also. Send a JAAF to Pal with your invasion and possibly a AA.

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Japan AC wire chart here
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2769286&mpage=1&key=?

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Post #: 25
RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 3:12:28 PM   
RangerJoe


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Nates and Claudes on defense will disrupt and possibly damage B-17s. They will shoot down the Dutch version of the B-10. They will annoy Hudsons but B-25s are too fast. At 5000 foot CAP, they will do good work against early torpedo bombers. Zeroes work better with their cannons but they should be higher up.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 26
RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 6:10:27 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Midway just to see if that draws him out to fight. I need to find a decent land unit but if I took Modway early he’d have to be tempted to use his BBs to try and bombard


Probably the best land unit you have available in the beginning that you can get at quickly is the Guards brigade on Honshu. Its restricted so it can't be loaded onto ships until you 'buy' it out, but that should only take a few days as you start with 500 PP anyway.

There're other units available that are not restricted, but I find I need them for the conquest of the SRA.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 27
RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 6:31:19 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 6039
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

I think the CVEs with a few CS will probably stay at home as an air training reserve to masquerade as a CV task force if he tries a Hokkaido raid.


I wouldn't bother. You should have enough LBA assets in the region to repulse any incursion he may make into this area at the start of the game. There're also ways you may enhance this early in the game. One way is to 'flip' the HQ of the bases of Etorofu and the one on the southern end of Sakhalin. These will only go to another restricted base, but that will allow air transport of some land units, and most importantly restricted air units in the HI.

This will leave your CVE's and CS's for other more important duties in the expansion period.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 28
RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 6:40:54 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 6039
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

I didn’t take any oil/fuel early last game vs the AI as I was waiting for AA Regts to move forward, but I will just have to risk the B-17Ds visiting Miri.




No worries... (isn't that what you guys say)

Tina's can be placed in range to air lift AS devices into Miri on the first turn of liberation. You have an Oscar unit that may be broken down into squadrons of 10 A/C. One of these (should be enough) could then stage to Miri with drop tanks. In addition if you choose and no enemy fighters are in range you may use whatever CS or AV unit(s) you have that may get there with Pete's on board to act as 'ersatz' CAP units.

QED.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 9/7/2019 6:41:45 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 29
RE: Gensui jdsrae (J) vs CrackSabbath (A). IJ War Counc... - 9/7/2019 6:47:41 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 6039
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Nates and Claudes on defense will disrupt and possibly damage B-17s.




I've even had a Nate shoot down a B-17D once.... Once.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 30
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