From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
feel you're simply jerking us around without engaging on the specifics of what happened back then. Your use of ad hominem and non-sequitur remarks demonstrates that.
You know, using latin or greek ain't gonna make an argument sound smarter.
Give an example, write a simple question/answer situation, I don't know, do something bro! I can play ball only if there's a ball.
I got jumped on by Dili after I mentioned to Apollo that the passage he quoted
"Sergei Ivanov: the USSR did not find support from Europe to create an anti-Hitler coalition"
had, beyond "the obivous bitchin'" (my words) *some* merit, for it is what the Soviets tried for a time in the late 1930s.
I wasn't snarky in my remarks, I wasn't teasing anybody. Just, well, the guy is an arse but what he says is kinda true when it comes to the late 1930s.
Since then I've hold this ground. I didn't say they weren't opportunists, I didn't say they didn't have other plans, I didn't say they were honest folks led by some righteous leader. I said we didn't take this opportunity at that time, and only woke up when, after failing to find our support, they went for the next best thing for them, aka sleeping with the Nazis (which also happened to be the worst thing that could happen to us AND the worst thing that was to happen to them, but they thought they knew better). The fact both France and the UK were absolutely flabbergasted by the move in August 1939 should tell enough about what people thought of the on-going political spectrum then.
Once the whole thing digressed on the after-pact era itself, people started to brand every single Communist as a collaborationist. I cared to differ. Situation was way more complex than that, and the infiltration of the anti-war movement in the US doesn't tell the whole story. I said Fascists and Communists were in an ideological competition because they address the same audience, and as such on a collision course. It ended up with Dili saying that the Fascists were the moderate in this story (his words). Being from a country where we actually had a Communist Party before and after the war, you might understand that it is a bit too much to absorb at once - that "the Fascists kept the King while the Communists killed their Tzar" argument, oh well, then I should consider myself lucky that French Communist delegates accepted to siege in the lower chamber of my Republic without trying to overturn my government every now and then, right?
By then it seemed obvious there would be no ground for discussion with Dili, considering he seemed not very willing to involve himself in the complexity of the politics of the 3rd Republic (which obviously had their repercussions on our foreign policy too) and the peculiar role the French Communist Party played, especially in the awkward times of the post-Pact/pre-Barbarossa, so I gave up on the whole "they were all traitors" topic. What was I supposed to do, summon February 1934 to trump his Songs for John Doe argument? We're literally living on two different planets in here.
Then now I see people telling me that I am eulogizing the conduct of the Soviet Union and refuting their crimes. I am not. I won't. My whole family went through these crimes and suffered enough from them for me to have ample knowledge. But Family ain't a badge I can waive freely so that I can decide to let my supposed grudges affect the facts. I have all the reasons to resent the Soviets for things they did, but a fact is a fact: in the late 1930s, they were on the frontlines of the anti-fascist camp and we (France & the UK) were on the sidelines watching, and the demerit of a biased Russian so-called analyst trying pitifully to have an ounce of this so-called past glory anachronistically give the current regime some luster doesn't change a thing (or, at the most, makes it look worse than it should). At the end of the day, what more can I say?
So, apologies are in order if you're not considering me as a reliable interlocutor or if some of my remarks could be taken the wrong way. I can be sorry about not being understood because of my questionable grammar, and as such seen as being of bad faith. But don't expect me to apologize for what I am or what I think. I am the last man that has any reason to defend the Soviets in this story (that is, again, that late 1930s pre-Pact anti-fascist stance controversy) but I will make sure as hell that I remain so if need be.
< Message edited by Fishbed -- 9/2/2019 8:04:57 PM >