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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga

 
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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 6/25/2020 1:13:54 AM   
Okayrun3254


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames


quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

ALPHA Testers -- Sharpen Your Bayonets!

Who has time for this?


Count me in

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 6/25/2020 9:05:11 AM   
Piteas


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I´ve got time this summer and I´m very interested in the subject.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 6/27/2020 4:19:21 AM   
bcgames


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I think we have our four ALPHA testers. Thanks for jumping-in to the fray!

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 8/1/2020 3:52:02 AM   
bcgames


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To be published...looks like an interesting top-level view...

Stalingrad 1942–43 (1): The German Advance to the Volga (Campaign)

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 8/9/2020 2:55:51 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames
I think we have our four ALPHA testers. Thanks for jumping-in to the fray!


How did the testing go, bc? Are you satisfied with the scale etc.?

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 8/9/2020 5:21:51 AM   
bcgames


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Not there yet. Re-tooling the game while farming is not ideal. Onwards!

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 8/9/2020 8:53:08 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

Not there yet. Re-tooling the game while farming is not ideal. Onwards!


I wish you a good harvest then, and will keep checking on from time to time.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 8/9/2020 7:06:18 PM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

Not there yet. Re-tooling the game while farming is not ideal. Onwards!


Very appropriate to start a Stalingrad game during harvest season. Now, onwards to the winter!

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 8/23/2020 5:26:33 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima


quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

Not there yet. Re-tooling the game while farming is not ideal. Onwards!


Very appropriate to start a Stalingrad game during harvest season. Now, onwards to the winter!

Well actually we've been working on Stalingrad for two and a half years...but I get your point. One more week of farm/public interaction (the farmer's market) then--back to the bunker.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/6/2020 6:09:21 AM   
bcgames


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Back in the bunker...Onwards!

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/12/2020 4:13:29 AM   
bcgames


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After a year of wrestling with the scope of an operational game representing the Stalingrad campaign, we've decided to split the game in two. Scenarios for Stalingrad: Nightmare on the Volga will end on the evening turn of 18 November 1942. Operations Uranus, Winter Storm and Ring will be the subjects of a future game/DLC opportunity. We will consume the elephant a bite at a time or be squashed under its fat ass.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/12/2020 10:27:16 AM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

After a year of wrestling with the scope of an operational game representing the Stalingrad campaign, we've decided to split the game in two. Scenarios for Stalingrad: Nightmare on the Volga will end on the evening turn of 18 November 1942. Operations Uranus, Winter Storm and Ring will be the subjects of a future game/DLC opportunity. We will consume the elephant a bite at a time or be squashed under its fat ass.


They are totally different operations, down to how they were fought, so it makes sense.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/24/2020 3:25:42 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima


quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

After a year of wrestling with the scope of an operational game representing the Stalingrad campaign, we've decided to split the game in two. Scenarios for Stalingrad: Nightmare on the Volga will end on the evening turn of 18 November 1942. Operations Uranus, Winter Storm and Ring will be the subjects of a future game/DLC opportunity. We will consume the elephant a bite at a time or be squashed under its fat ass.


They are totally different operations, down to how they were fought, so it makes sense.

Alrighty then! Thanks for the confirmation of our decision.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/28/2020 4:56:27 PM   
wodin


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I agree, makes total sense.

I'm even more excited about a game that's dedicated to the city fighting.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/29/2020 6:28:11 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

After a year of wrestling with the scope of an operational game representing the Stalingrad campaign, we've decided to split the game in two. Scenarios for Stalingrad: Nightmare on the Volga will end on the evening turn of 18 November 1942. Operations Uranus, Winter Storm and Ring will be the subjects of a future game/DLC opportunity. We will consume the elephant a bite at a time or be squashed under its fat ass.


So how far back from Uranus are you considering to make scenarios of? John Tiller's Stalingrad'42 covered in a not very satisfying manner the lead up to the fighting in Stalingrad proper.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/29/2020 3:19:08 PM   
bcgames


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We're starting with German 6th Army's attack to destroy Soviet 62nd Army in the Don Bend (22 July 1942). The image shows work in progress on a map section of the initial operation. See TIK video here for details:

S1/E1 - The 6th Army Strikes!
https://youtu.be/YAfo5mse-ag

The second set of scenarios address the crossing of the Don River and the approach to the gates of Stalingrad by 6th Army and 4th Panzer Army. The last set of scenarios encompass the fight for the city.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/29/2020 9:12:56 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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Thanks for the sneak peek John, much appreciated.

That looks like a 2.5km/hex scale, is that correct?

If you are looking for playtesters, let me know. Happy to send some feedback to you guys.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/30/2020 3:28:35 AM   
Okayrun3254


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Wow, nice screen shot. The summer terrain colors look great.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/30/2020 3:35:59 AM   
bcgames


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Yes, 2.5km/hex.

We're getting closer to ALPHA for testing.

The Soviets are proving to be severe "anti-game engine" forces...regiments that are really battalions...corps that are really divisions...no corps HQs (disbanded)...and HANDS FULL of separate units under army and front HQs control. The game engine is designed to support WWII...except the USSR in 1942. We are working some ad-hockery HQ structures to make the Soviet side work easier for the player than the historical reality--which would be unplayable for the casual gamer. It'll work...but man! Ain't no way to organize an army--or a game engine. Oh those Russians...

Onwards!

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Post #: 139
RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/30/2020 3:39:50 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Okayrun3254

Wow, nice screen shot. The summer terrain colors look great.

Great! Glad you like it. This map preceded/inspired the Salerno map...so there will be a few tweaks to the Stalingrad maps to bring them up to standard.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 9/30/2020 10:05:38 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames


The Soviets are proving to be severe "anti-game engine" forces...regiments that are really battalions...corps that are really divisions...no corps HQs (disbanded)...and HANDS FULL of separate units under army and front HQs control. The game engine is designed to support WWII...except the USSR in 1942. We are working some ad-hockery HQ structures to make the Soviet side work easier for the player than the historical reality--which would be unplayable for the casual gamer. It'll work...but man! Ain't no way to organize an army--or a game engine. Oh those Russians...


I feel your pain. I found the ragtag nature of Red Army units that had spent some time in the field, subject to eye watering rates of attrition, both a research challenge and also a lesson about why hardcoding too much stuff to the unit "size" can be a bad idea ;)

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 10/2/2020 3:56:39 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BletchleyGeek
...hardcoding too much stuff to the unit "size" can be a bad idea ;)

True...especially for the Soviets in 1942. The size is a graphical issue (minor) and a stacking issue (major). We solve the problem leaning heavily towards the stacking issue; the graphical representation of echelon issue won't be an issue for those who just want to play the game. For those that get the problem? Their concerns are justified. I don't know if expending coding energy to put an X or an XX or an XXX above a unit counter is a priority at this point for the game engine...we're going Western Front after Stalingrad.

Players! Should two guys spend their time re-making/re-coding unit size graphic assignments above a unit counter? To match a title to make what is a division-equivalent look like a corps cuz it's called a corps...but is really just a division in the eyes of the average game player?

What do YOU think is the correct way to go? Why?


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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 10/2/2020 4:48:29 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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Wouldn't be just a matter to changing the mapping between "unit size" and "stacking points" from a hardcoded parameter to something that is part of the scenario data?

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 10/3/2020 12:11:58 AM   
bcgames


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There's another component in the equation...divisions can be attached/detached between corps in the same army in the Stalingrad game engine. So...I created Operational Group HQs units (OG) to represent the "corps HQs" that the Soviets temporarily discarded in 1942. At least two historical examples of this adhoc organization were used by the Soviets during the 1942 campaign to solve for the lack of corps HQs (OG Chubisov and OG Chuikov). Under this model, a Soviet tank "corps" (divison) can be transferred between OGs but cannot have divisions attached/detached...cuz a tank corps is comprised of brigades...it is not a corps HQs.

The Soviets created this cognitive dissonance with their WWII nameage. I think we have the least bad solution to this Soviet-created anomaly. Complicated rules on organizations will not be warmly embraced by casual game players (me). But I could be wrong.

Knowing this additional parameter (attach/detach divisions between corps), how would you solve the cognitive dissonance problem?

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 10/3/2020 1:46:09 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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Well, you don't have to worry about Rifle Corps :)

A similar issue you would have in late 1943 and early 1944 with the Germans and their Division and Corps "abteilungs".

How about adding an attribute in units data called "max attach size" that limits the maximum attachment size? That would be by default division for German Corps and Soviet Rifle Corps, and could be set in the scenario editor as brigade for Soviet Tank and Mech Corps. That would be a pretty straightforward thing to add, offering backwards compatibility (can be set by default to a safe value when loading the data), and adds one simple comparison to the check to see if one unit can be attached to another one (no expensive computation). I think that is better and more robust than what other games do (like relying on a specific naming convention).

That would be an easy and quick fix that can come in handy with other funny organisations (e.g. British armoured bdes containing regiments etc.)

I think also that getting over that cognitive dissonance is part of the Eastern Front rite of passage.

< Message edited by BletchleyGeek -- 10/3/2020 1:47:12 AM >


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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 10/4/2020 8:37:16 PM   
Okayrun3254


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Is this how the units will look in the game? If so, I think the description of the Russian, Tank Corps, regiments, Tank brigades all look fine.

Frank




quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

Alrighty then...

At long last I think I have everything together for the first scenario of the Ghost Division Campaign -- 11th Panzer Division's Battles on the Chir River in December 1942. These scenarios will used to test the campaign game engine which is nearing completion.

In retrospect? I should have chosen a campaign with a easier order of battle. The Chir River Battles are the hardest OBs I've ever tackled. I have spent at least $500-750 on resource materials and a hundred hours or so trying to sort things out. After all that, I'm very confident--I'm somewhere in Russia in a ballpark--if they have one. I've squeezed the last juices from Glantz' map book on the topic and I think the buck will stop there.

In building the OBs for this game I was surprised at the number of Guards Mortar (Katyusha) units there were...so...if you missed my favorite rendition of the Katyusha song...here it is again!

Katyusha Dance

Katyusha Rockets

Onwards!





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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 10/6/2020 3:51:14 AM   
bcgames


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The Soviet tank corps on-map counter would have a division symbol on it instead of a corps.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 10/8/2020 2:12:51 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognerd_INC


quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames


quote:

ORIGINAL: BletchleyGeek
...hardcoding too much stuff to the unit "size" can be a bad idea ;)

True...especially for the Soviets in 1942. The size is a graphical issue (minor) and a stacking issue (major). We solve the problem leaning heavily towards the stacking issue; the graphical representation of echelon issue won't be an issue for those who just want to play the game. For those that get the problem? Their concerns are justified. I don't know if expending coding energy to put an X or an XX or an XXX above a unit counter is a priority at this point for the game engine...we're going Western Front after Stalingrad.

Players! Should two guys spend their time re-making/re-coding unit size graphic assignments above a unit counter? To match a title to make what is a division-equivalent look like a corps cuz it's called a corps...but is really just a division in the eyes of the average game player?

What do YOU think is the correct way to go? Why?


My humble opinion is that a historical game should show historical designations. So a Soviet corp is a corp not a division symbol wise. I'm an older gamer and history is paramount for my game play style. If you need to re-code just rip off the Europa regimental equivalent rules.



I agree. Things have to be as historical as possible.

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RE: Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga - 10/9/2020 6:46:09 AM   
bcgames


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Do you want to be able to attach/detach Soviet Tank Corps between operational groups or do you want XXX above the tank corps counter? I can do one or the other. The Code is locked.

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