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RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys

 
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RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/11/2019 8:58:51 PM   
demyansk


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It's not the video games, but lack of parenting and males in the household.

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Post #: 31
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/11/2019 9:21:22 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

I always find the distinction between who was the good guys and who were the bad guys is drawn by who wins. The Soviets invaded 4 peaceful countries before the war even started and not a word about it. Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

The US never recognized the incorporation of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania into the Soviet Union. Maps of the Soviet Union used to have a disclaimer to that effect.


Not my point at all.

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Post #: 32
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/12/2019 10:28:23 AM   
bayonetbrant

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

One thing I remember from my journalism classes is Marshall McCluhan's quote, "The medium is the message." He wrote that in 1964 not long after the dawn of the age of live TV news. We applied it to TV, with the idea that TV focused more on stories that had video and less on those without video.


That was absolutely *not* the point of McLuhan's assertion that the medium itself was the message being sent.

It is more closely related to McLuhan's ideas about hot/cool media, but even there it's not really where McLuhan was going.

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Post #: 33
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/12/2019 2:01:15 PM   
Zap


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I would just like a clarification on whats the politic policy is here. That's all.

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Post #: 34
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/12/2019 4:43:19 PM   
rico21

 

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The bad guys of some are not necessarily the bad guys of others.
We can play them all for the simple reason that wargames are not roleplays.

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Post #: 35
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/12/2019 10:04:48 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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Oops. You can delete this one.

< Message edited by jwarrenw13 -- 8/12/2019 10:19:49 PM >

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Post #: 36
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/12/2019 10:18:51 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

One thing I remember from my journalism classes is Marshall McCluhan's quote, "The medium is the message." He wrote that in 1964 not long after the dawn of the age of live TV news. We applied it to TV, with the idea that TV focused more on stories that had video and less on those without video.


That was absolutely *not* the point of McLuhan's assertion that the medium itself was the message being sent.

It is more closely related to McLuhan's ideas about hot/cool media, but even there it's not really where McLuhan was going.


It appears you missed the part where I wrote, "We applied it to..." So maybe I'm a little more aware of McLuhan's thinking than you think I am. He was a very interesting character, and one of our journalism professors was rather obsessed with him. He did make some interesting predictions.

One of his own explanations was, "The medium is the message. This is merely to say that the personal and social consequences of any medium - that is, of any extension of ourselves - result from the new scale that is introduced into our affairs by each extension of ourselves, or by any new technology."

He was indeed interested in the effects TV and of new technology, and made some interesting predictions about the future of communications and technology.

For example: "Politics will eventually be replaced by imagery. The politician will be only too happy to abdicate in favor of his image, because the image will be much more powerful than he could ever be." He nailed that one.


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RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/12/2019 10:53:31 PM   
TDefender


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232.000 dislikes vs 15.000 likes, thankfully.

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RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/14/2019 12:29:54 AM   
Gilmer


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Dear Mr. Kuokannen,

I'm not saying you're saying this. But I'm saying it to the ones who claim video games make you violent. I have played many, many, many violent first person shooters and not once have I ever thought it was right, good, or anything but despicable to go out and shoot real live people.

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Post #: 39
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/14/2019 12:32:41 AM   
Gilmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Yes there was a thread on this subject and no, it didn't end badly, it just fizzled out.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4668657

I said on that thread - and say again - that this is a subject war gamers and war game designers and producers should be talking about because it affects the future of the industry. I suggested that Matrix offer a few thoughts, but disappointingly this wasn't taken up.

There is no reason for this discussion topic to end poorly or get locked. What is being debated is pertinent and can't be ignored. There is no reason why we, as war gamers who spend our hard earned GBP/$/€ etc on games shouldn't be discussing the industry's future direction is there?


Well, it was locked before it could fizzle.

And the reason the discussions end poorly or get locked is that too many people seem fundamentally incapable of engaging an argument on it's merits without reflexively defaulting to any number of logical fallacies, whether a slippery slope argument or a false dichotomy argument or a wicked alternative argument or any number if borderline-irrelevant straw man arguments. There's a half dozen in this thread alone.

Many folks seem to react at a visceral level based on some really poor headline-writing (especially true with the New York Times article) and refuse to even read the articles/watch the videos under discussion. Many also claim that the mere source of the article is sufficient for thoughtless dismissal.

The bottom line is that these questions aren't new - David Hughes wrote an article about this for Battles! Magazine back in 2009. They're not going away as the gaming audience diversifies. And many of them ask some pertinent and thoughtful questions, like Rob Zany's column at VICE did.

We recorded a loooong podcast about this last week over at Armchair Dragoons, wherein we discuss the latest blowup, some of the previous blowups, and why many of the questions being asked are perfectly valid questions, but still facing hostility for even being asked.

https://www.armchairdragoons.com/podcast/mentioned-in-dispatches-special-summer-2019-edition/



The video originally posted was roundly criticized by a lot of people, though. People know what they are buying, so trying to educate them after or anyone acting like they didn't know, is bonkers, if you ask me.

_____________________________

He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon
"There are no modern Nazis. The real Nazis in Hell laugh at the notion." - Gilmer, descendant of Poles.

(in reply to bayonetbrant)
Post #: 40
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/14/2019 12:42:03 AM   
Gilmer


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quote:

the 24-hour news cycle and instant access to news via the Internet.


William T Sherman "If I had my choice, I'd kill every reporter in the world, but I'm sure we'd be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."

This in no way endorses the kind of violence he jokingly suggested.

_____________________________

He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon
"There are no modern Nazis. The real Nazis in Hell laugh at the notion." - Gilmer, descendant of Poles.

(in reply to jwarrenw13)
Post #: 41
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/14/2019 1:20:13 AM   
bayonetbrant

 

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Yeah, I mean, it's not like McLuhan wasn't about 30% of the bibliography of my dissertation or anything. But get down whitcherbadself and your journalism prof (never mind I actually was one, not just studying under one).


The point of "the medium is the message" is that how you communicate something is the key component of the message.

Consider a message informing you that your significant other is leaving you.

A hand-written letter conveys one meaning
A text on the cell phone conveys another
A billboard on the side of the highway is a totally different kind of message even though they all say "I'm leaving you"


but hey, that class you had, I'm sure was pretty awesome.



Back to the subject - the makeups of different creative communities inevitably change of time, and those creative communities will challenge "the way it's always been done" to the displeasure of those who are perfectly fine with the way it's always been done.

It happens in literally every creative endeavor in human history.

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Post #: 42
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/14/2019 1:21:35 AM   
bayonetbrant

 

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and with that, I'm out and y'all can have your own playground back, as it's clear you're not big on other faces stopping in for a visit....

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Post #: 43
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/14/2019 2:51:07 AM   
jwarrenw13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant

Yeah, I mean, it's not like McLuhan wasn't about 30% of the bibliography of my dissertation or anything. But get down whitcherbadself and your journalism prof (never mind I actually was one, not just studying under one).


The point of "the medium is the message" is that how you communicate something is the key component of the message.

Consider a message informing you that your significant other is leaving you.

A hand-written letter conveys one meaning
A text on the cell phone conveys another
A billboard on the side of the highway is a totally different kind of message even though they all say "I'm leaving you"


but hey, that class you had, I'm sure was pretty awesome.



Back to the subject - the makeups of different creative communities inevitably change of time, and those creative communities will challenge "the way it's always been done" to the displeasure of those who are perfectly fine with the way it's always been done.

It happens in literally every creative endeavor in human history.



Meaning the medium, how you communicate something, as you say, for example TV, is, as you say, the key component of the message. So............we are back to where I started, bubba. Sorry I triggered you with a reference to McLuhan.

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Post #: 44
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/14/2019 4:49:51 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KurtC

The video originally posted was roundly criticized by a lot of people, though. People know what they are buying, so trying to educate them after or anyone acting like they didn't know, is bonkers, if you ask me.

I have read stories about parents buying games to their children, then complaining its violent or homosexual or whatever else content. Clearly not all the people know what they are buying.

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

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Post #: 45
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/14/2019 5:07:44 PM   
Zovs


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My mother purchased my first war games for me in 1976, D-Day, Afrika Korps, Battle of the Bulge, and Waterloo. Then six months later for my birthday she got me The Russian Campaign, Third Reich, PanzerBlitz and PanzerLeader. I was set and destined for life. I joined the Army in 1987 and life has been grand. We got to drive unstoppable tanks and blow stuff up, it was like when I was a kid and I spent hours making military models only to take them into the garden and blow them up with rocks or light them on fire. I killed a lot of plastic army men in my time.

The person who created YouTube thing was a joke with an agenda, its utter rubbish.

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Post #: 46
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/14/2019 10:36:28 PM   
IslandInland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant

and with that, I'm out and y'all can have your own playground back, as it's clear you're not big on other faces stopping in for a visit....


You should stick around. The clique is strong in this forum.


_____________________________

I saw generals create imaginary "masses of manoeuvre" with a crayon and dispose of enemy concentrations, that were on the ground and on the map, with an eraser. Who was I to criticise them, hero as I was of a hundred "Chinagraph wars" of make-believe?

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Post #: 47
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/15/2019 2:53:46 AM   
AndySfromVA

 

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In WW2 games don't mind playing the Axis but I'd like to also play the Allies.
I hope Panzer Corps 2 will have a DLC that will have Allied campaigns.

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Post #: 48
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/15/2019 5:30:02 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndySfromVA

I hope Panzer Corps 2 will have a DLC that will have Allied campaigns.

First one has it. It's called Allied Corps

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You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

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Post #: 49
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/15/2019 10:45:22 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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I don't know. There are a LOT of games out there where you can play as the Germans or Japanese in World War II. Some people, including me, willingly play as those factions sometimes, if they are interesting to play--even when we are given free choice to do so or not do so. Or what about Panzer Corps and Panzer General, for example? IIRC when those games first started out, there was no option at all to play allies in campaign mode. Did those games "normalize" evil? I mean, I think the majority of us here know right from wrong in real life and don't belong to the local Nazi party. I don't think I've ever seen anyone here espouse Nazism. And even if there are a few who do, was it because of video games "normalizing" the ideology that caused them to become Nazis or were there deeper issues at root that caused it?

And what comes next? Will video games need to discourage people from playing the Orcs in DoW or the Zerg in StarCraft? I mean, maybe that "normalizes" bad guys and the next step after that is to become a Nazi?

EDIT: For clarification, this post is in response to the OP, not anyone else's particular post.

< Message edited by GaryChildress -- 8/15/2019 11:27:57 PM >

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RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/15/2019 11:45:11 PM   
demyansk


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When I play the Germans I think of the army. Not the Nazi party.

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RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/16/2019 12:45:46 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

When I play the Germans I think of the army. Not the Nazi party.


Same here. The games I play strictly deal with the military aspects of the war and not politics. I mean, I don't know of any WWII games that include the more unsavory aspects of the war. Also both sides have unsavory moments of shame to them. Should we not play as allies in a flight simulator because of the effects of strategic bombing on civilians? Will it desensitize us to the killing of civilians in war? And what if a person is a German or Japanese citizen and wants to play as their own people in a WWII game? Should that be discouraged too? Should we view them as evil today because they chose to play the wrong side in a video game? I don't know. This all sounds a bit ridiculous or over the top to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

EDIT: Or what about war games at all? Do wargames "normalize" war? Maybe we should all quit wargames and play games like Asteroids or Pac Man?

< Message edited by GaryChildress -- 8/16/2019 1:18:15 AM >

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RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/16/2019 4:37:37 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GaryChildress

quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

When I play the Germans I think of the army. Not the Nazi party.


Same here. The games I play strictly deal with the military aspects of the war and not politics. I mean, I don't know of any WWII games that include the more unsavory aspects of the war. Also both sides have unsavory moments of shame to them. Should we not play as allies in a flight simulator because of the effects of strategic bombing on civilians? Will it desensitize us to the killing of civilians in war? And what if a person is a German or Japanese citizen and wants to play as their own people in a WWII game? Should that be discouraged too? Should we view them as evil today because they chose to play the wrong side in a video game? I don't know. This all sounds a bit ridiculous or over the top to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

EDIT: Or what about war games at all? Do wargames "normalize" war? Maybe we should all quit wargames and play games like Asteroids or Pac Man?


The strategic games of WWII's Pacific theater generally include civilian deaths (e.g. "Manpower" hits in War in the Pacific). I find this somewhat disturbing -- but it is a very real part of history. Note the Japanese use of chemical and biological weapons in China is generally not modeled, but the atomic bombs are.

Fortunately, in these games, the Allied player always has the option not to use nuclear weapons. But maybe there should be a political cost for civilian casualties, lest we forget.

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Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

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Post #: 53
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/16/2019 6:56:49 AM   
warspite1


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Well this thread continues and has not been locked so I'll venture my GBP£0.02.

I don't really get the whole civilian deaths thing when playing a strategic level game of WWII. For the avoidance of doubt I am NOT talking about the holocaust and similar acts. I am talking purely about the deaths of civilians as a result of the fact there was a war on and there was collateral damage.

Of course to an extent civilians have always been in the way and there have always been civilian casualties in wars down the ages. But it is the sheer scale of WWII, the scope of operations and the military technological advancements, that made WWII so destructive for the civilian population of many countries. WWII took this to another level, partly due to strategic bombing, but also because WWII was total war and not all civilians could remove themselves from the areas fought over.

But if we are to be squeamish over civilian deaths to the point that nuclear weapons are not playable, then what about strategic bombing? And if that is not acceptable then what about the very act of going to war in the first place? How many civilians are estimated to have been killed as a result of the Normandy invasion as just one example? 20,000 is a number I've seen. Some the result of tactical bombing, some the result of shore bombardment, and many because they were unlucky enough to be in the firing line when the war came to their city, town, village or farm.

I don't really see how 'manpower hits' is an unacceptable concept in a strategic war game. I know that manpower pools was a concept that the World In Flames designers were thinking about for when the game came to computer. I don't know to what extent this was really considered, how it would be calculated, and why it was dropped - but it would actually be an excellent addition to a strategic game. The reasoning is simple. Playing World In Flames with oil is a different game to playing without. Oil is simply vital and it can't be squandered (particularly by the Axis) and so moves can be limited by the oil situation. This is totally realistic and greatly adds to the WWII feel of the game.

By the same token, manpower restrictions would add hugely to the game experience. Manpower by the end of the war was becoming an issue for all participants and was certainly a major issue for the Commonwealth which had to dismantle divisions to keep manpower to the required levels in others. As with oil limiting movements, so the need to conserve fighting strength would perhaps make for more realistic appraisals when launching attacks and campaigns - and unrealistically sacrificing whole armies to delay an opponent. Manpower available for fighting was affected by losses in the field, PoW taken, home territory captured by the enemy and the effects of strategic bombing. Manpower available for the army would be effected by the size of the navy and air force. Hell, one could even have a resource output effect - depending upon the size of the armed forces (and the subsequent knock-on effect of those available for industry). Loads of possibilities.

But I guess everyone has a line they, personally, don't want to cross. The use of the bomb in WWII is not a line for me. Terrible as they were, they brought this most destructive of wars to an end and, in my view, they are what have kept the major powers at peace (localised conflicts aside) since 1945.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/16/2019 7:21:45 AM >


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Post #: 54
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/16/2019 7:13:12 AM   
RangerJoe


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The colt .45 pistol was called the peacemaker because, when it came out, people became peaceful one way or another. War is another tool of diplomacy and we all know the consequences of not wanting to use it. That was another thread. If WWII was total war and manpower was another input for the manufacturing of weapons of war, then it was bound to be targeted.

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Post #: 55
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/16/2019 4:02:59 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the same token, manpower restrictions would add hugely to the game experience.

It does in Aggressors: Ancient Rome. Manpower is a concrete resource which affects on production of given city (as in Civilization games) and # of military units that can be made & maintained. Unlike in Civ games, building of a military unit reduces manpower from the cities.

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 56
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/16/2019 4:15:44 PM   
RangerJoe


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In Civ, drafting military units does reduce manpower. So does the hurry mode for certain governments. But I have only played up to CIV3.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Kuokkanen)
Post #: 57
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/16/2019 4:40:07 PM   
bayonetbrant

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

When I play the Germans I think of the army. Not the Nazi party.


https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/j5waqd/games-have-always-tried-to-whitewash-nazis-as-just-german-soldiers

(in reply to demyansk)
Post #: 58
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/16/2019 4:55:30 PM   
RangerJoe


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The person who wrote that should get their terminology correct as well as do more research.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to bayonetbrant)
Post #: 59
RE: Opting Out of Playing the Bad Guys - 8/16/2019 7:27:41 PM   
demyansk


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I know the research, and going back to 1940 as an 18 year old and deciding what's really going is quite different than 2019. No tv, internet and all government controlled media, this includes the other side as well.

Enough said

< Message edited by demyansk -- 8/16/2019 7:30:45 PM >

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