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Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/5/2019 3:38:03 PM   
Raindem

 

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There are some decent ones depicting particular battles. But I'm more interested in the strategic level. Has anyone created a scenario to cover the entire war?

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/5/2019 3:56:53 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Check this one out:

Attachment (1)

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/5/2019 8:07:09 PM   
Raindem

 

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Thanks. That's certainly in the direction I was looking for. It appears to be a scenario from the days of CoW (500 events and briefing references to the old TDG).

I'm thinking of starting a new scenario project covering this subject. Just wanted to see what else was out there before duplicating someone else's work. Chuck's scenarios are always good, but I'm sure this one could benefit from a little freshening up. TOAW 4 has a lot of great new tools for the scenario designer. Unfortunately, I've found it difficult to apply them to legacy scenarios. That is T4's achilles heel IMO.





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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/5/2019 9:05:52 PM   
Silvanski


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This scenario was covered in another thread several months ago, and it seems that alot of the events are broken

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/5/2019 10:41:08 PM   
sPzAbt653


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I don't recall that thread, but I do have a modified file here, wit the following notes:

Change List, 10-5-2018

Event: 20, Trigger Event changed to 20.
[Added ev501: TO 1, Blockade Southern Ports, to trigger ev20]
Event: 49, Trigger Event changed to 49.
Event: 58, Trigger Event changed to 58.
Event: 73, Trigger Event changed to 73.
Event: 74, Trigger Event changed to 74.
Event: 80, Activate Event changed to 82.
Event: 82, Trigger Event changed to 82.
Event: 111, Trigger Event changed to 111.
Event: 125, Trigger Event changed to 125.
Event: 244, Trigger Event changed to 244.
Event: 264, Trigger Event changed to 264.
Event: 288, Trigger Event changed to 288.
Event: 338, Trigger Event changed to 338.


Most of the above events had their original Trigger Events erased by a conversion/corruption at some point. Note that this was not a comprehensive troubleshoot and rewrite of all events. Only events that had lost their triggers have been investigated and corrected.



So if someone wants to they can make the above changes, or e-mail me and I'll send you the file I have here.

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/6/2019 1:44:38 AM   
Zovs


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Is the modified file included in the zip above?

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/6/2019 2:26:21 AM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I do have a modified file here
So if someone wants to they can make the above changes, or e-mail me and I'll send you the file I have here.

This'll do just fine. Tnx

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/6/2019 3:20:31 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Is the modified file included in the zip above?

No, the zip above contains only the original.

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/6/2019 4:23:20 PM   
coachi

 

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Can i get the file.

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/6/2019 6:18:56 PM   
sPzAbt653


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You can get the one attached to post #2, or there is the other one referenced in post #5. To get the other one e-mail me and I'll send it to you. Click my name at <<<left to see my e-mail.

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/6/2019 7:22:56 PM   
Raindem

 

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If I do this project I'll probably just start from scratch. I'm hesitant to tinker with other people's designs. In a scenario of this scale (and age), too many decisions went into it for someone to walk in cold and think they are going to make it right.



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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/7/2019 2:53:32 AM   
Silvanski


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I implemented the event corrections provided by our schwere Panzer friend
Seeing that this scenario has a rudimentary PO in place (objective tracks, I am tempted to make it fully playable vs the PO.
This however means that I need to make two versions, one per side, like I did with Tane Woodley's 'American Front 1914-1918' monster.
Theater Options for one side have to be changed to be PO activated to get the full effects and benefits for such things.
I'm gonna take a deeper look into it... May take a while though.

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/7/2019 5:23:12 PM   
Bamilus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

I implemented the event corrections provided by our schwere Panzer friend
Seeing that this scenario has a rudimentary PO in place (objective tracks, I am tempted to make it fully playable vs the PO.
This however means that I need to make two versions, one per side, like I did with Tane Woodley's 'American Front 1914-1918' monster.
Theater Options for one side have to be changed to be PO activated to get the full effects and benefits for such things.
I'm gonna take a deeper look into it... May take a while though.


Would be sweet, I was looking for a Civil War campaign scenario a few months back and noticed there wasn't any that existed in a good format.

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/8/2019 12:10:13 AM   
Silvanski


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I already spotted some TO woes.. The Union gets two to end the cease-fire while there's none for the Confederacy... There's gonna be more stuff messed up due to the conversion

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/12/2019 2:53:12 AM   
biddrafter2

 

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My original thread on this scenario is here.

I spent some time on these problems but could never find a cause for the event corruption or theater option strangeness. I tried to get it through to Ralph because I was worried that it was caused by conversion within TOAW IV and indicative of a deeper problem in th ebuild. For example, the event that links to at least one of the theater options is not visible through any of the event dump tools... it is like more than 500 events are stuffed into the file, and active, and yet invisible.

I would dearly love for someone to upgrade this scenario as it is one of my favorites. I had hoped to do it myself but the day job has been too busy.

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/12/2019 11:17:27 PM   
Raindem

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: biddrafter2
I would dearly love for someone to upgrade this scenario as it is one of my favorites. I had hoped to do it myself but the day job has been too busy.


It's a very ambitious scenario, and it's obvious that a lot of hard work went into it. But I don't think trying to fix it is going to produce the scenario that is expected. The best we could hope for is a 20 year old scenario that played without major errors. But there would be no way to determine if it was actually playing "correctly". At 475 turns, it would be virtually impossible to adequately playtest such a monster. Even "back in the day", I don't know how close this scenario was to being released. It made it out the door, to be sure. But the title indicates it was still in a beta phase. And being that it does not have a PO, it would have been ignored by the many players who do PO-only.

So...I'm going with my first instinct, to create from scratch a strategic level Civil War scenario with all the bells and whistles of T4. Civil War OOB information is plentiful, the interest is there, and I think it's a niche that needs to be filled.


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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/13/2019 12:00:09 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Let me be another voice to encourage you. The community is greatful for your efforts I'm sure.

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/13/2019 10:06:28 PM   
biddrafter2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem

It's a very ambitious scenario, and it's obvious that a lot of hard work went into it. But I don't think trying to fix it is going to produce the scenario that is expected. The best we could hope for is a 20 year old scenario that played without major errors. But there would be no way to determine if it was actually playing "correctly". At 475 turns, it would be virtually impossible to adequately playtest such a monster. Even "back in the day", I don't know how close this scenario was to being released. It made it out the door, to be sure. But the title indicates it was still in a beta phase. And being that it does not have a PO, it would have been ignored by the many players who do PO-only.

So...I'm going with my first instinct, to create from scratch a strategic level Civil War scenario with all the bells and whistles of T4. Civil War OOB information is plentiful, the interest is there, and I think it's a niche that needs to be filled.



I played it through twice and it worked well, but that is nowhere near enough to say it is "good" and I agree with your assessment. My goal for upgrading the ACWv09 scenario, however minor the corrections, was my expectation that we would never again get a full length American Civil War scenario. If you are able to get to your project I'm thrilled! Please keep us informed.

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/15/2019 2:11:31 PM   
Raindem

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: biddrafter2
I played it through twice and it worked well, but that is nowhere near enough to say it is "good" and I agree with your assessment. My goal for upgrading the ACWv09 scenario, however minor the corrections, was my expectation that we would never again get a full length American Civil War scenario. If you are able to get to your project I'm thrilled! Please keep us informed.


I've already started the research so this will happen. I'm a project-oriented type of person and usually get things done once I put my mind to it.

I'm curious though. Did you play solitaire or vs a live opponent? What was your impression of how the scenario played? I'm particularly interested in the scale. Did it work? I'm assuming you're a Civil War buff to endure such a long scenario. Do you think it played out historically accurate? I don't mean that it has to mirror history. But given the players' actions, the results have to be believable.

Thanks, Curt.


< Message edited by Raindem -- 8/15/2019 2:15:15 PM >


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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/15/2019 11:11:04 PM   
biddrafter2

 

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I played a couple aborted efforts solitaire (~150 moves), twice all the way through solitaire, and once all the way though with an opponent. I should stress that I am NOT a skilled TOAW player, nor was my opponent. I know the basics of the game and enjoy it but would likely get skunked by any of the “competent or above” players on here.

I tried to follow the house rules in the documentation. All play was in TOAW 3 using v09.

I am quite interested in the Civil War and have read many books on the era. I wouldn’t consider myself a Civil War buff in terms of expertise, especially at real military tactics. Put me at the Shelby Foote level.

If I haven’t completely ruined my credibility, here are my thoughts on the v09 scenario:

Good
1. Railroads “felt” right between North and South. Never a problem in the N, always immensely frustrating in the S, especially between East/West theaters.

2. Enjoyed the Theater Option approach to KY neutrality.

3. KY as a battleground was enjoyable because the supply was so poor that it was difficult to maintain any type of breakthrough

4. Missouri was an enjoyable mess as the N. No supply, roads always mud, tons of bridges. I had many fun small scale battles out there.

5. The map itself allowed for reasonably detailed battles in Virginia and Tennessee. I also found the map aesthetically attractive and most of the roads and railroads made perfect sense, if sometimes modified from reality to fit the abstraction. The scale is interesting, both good and bad. It is great for detailed battles. See section in bad for more details.

6. It was extremely difficult to progress in Virginia, matching reality. However, in both cases I was able to capture Richmond as N by early 1864. So either I am much better than US generals, my strategy was more NVA centric, or the scenario allowed easier progress than reality.

7. Gunboats later in the scenario really added heft to the N attacks in NVA

8. Naval in the oceans was mostly pointless in terms of battles, matching the war.

9. Supply south of Tennessee is brutal as the N

10. Defending behind rivers as the S seemed less useful than my impression from reality but I felt the map at least made it a consideration, especially in NVA.

11. Supply disbands for the N and S were a nice way to incentivize progress, if perhaps a little gamified.

12. Raiders for the S were excellent for annoyance, but difficult to use for causing any noticeable long term problems for N. This seemed to model reality well. Of course, when playing for the S, it feels like they should have more of an impact because of their “romanticized” nature in descriptions of the war.

13. High levels of attrition (3) seemed appropriate and made battle heavy

Bad
1. Hated the need to disband units in order to gain proficiency over time

2. Forts seemed far too strong, especially early in the scenario. People had some success running batteries in the Civil War but there is simply no way to do so in this scenario, especially with the house rules requires a pause of a turn at fort locations.

3. Missouri was also pointless. Once established there is no chance of retaking St. Louis for the S. It took up a disproportionate amount of time.

4. The bad parts of the map. The battles tend to cluster in this scenario into tight geographical regions. This makes the enormous map a burden because the map gets jumped around to the areas of activity. This is a common issue in TOAW on enormous maps. However, the amount of areas that are completely empty are VAST and, frankly, could likely be jettisoned. No south Texas!

5. Keeping an HQ with all units for movement and/or attack was extremely frustrating and easy to forget. I can see the point but would prefer an adjustment in the turn time-scale instead of a house rule

6. Events. There are a ton of events and it is interesting how little impact they seem to have. It feels like a foregone conclusion the war will progress as normal. Perhaps a Theater option, now that event count is much larger, to allow more dynamic and less-reality based events to be used in the scenario optionally. Add a little more randomness and a little less 1861.

7. Artillery seemed too ineffective. Perhaps it was entered historically accurately (don’t know) but it did not feel as powerful as it should have. Rarely could terrain dominate a battle as often as described in battle histories. Obviously this is due to the map scale… but it shouldn’t be! The battles cluster despite the scale because of the HQ rule. Terrain should be a bigger influence than it is.

8. The scenario is so long, with so little happening at times. Winter quarter, for example, makes perfect sense but seems to last forever. Weekly turns?

Suggestions:
1. Maybe 5KM with only likely active theaters and passes open for play? Looped rail lines to simulate distances to require less jumping around? Much less aesthetically pleasing, perhaps better gameplay.

2. Weekly turns? Would need to be checked against whatever map scale is chosen.

3. Remove proficiency disbands and perhaps throttle with replacement rate instead.

4. Focus more on gameplay and less on historical accuracy requiring house rules, like HQ disbands for Grant because of promotions.

5. Solve the fort problem for early scenario. Boats too weak to defend.



< Message edited by biddrafter2 -- 8/15/2019 11:13:01 PM >

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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/18/2019 2:02:31 PM   
Raindem

 

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Thanks for the detailed feedback. It helps to plan the direction I want this to go in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: biddrafter2
Suggestions:
1. Maybe 5KM with only likely active theaters and passes open for play? Looped rail lines to simulate distances to require less jumping around? Much less aesthetically pleasing, perhaps better gameplay.


I'm not sure if you are aware, but the internal map scale is set at 25km, which is over 3x the scale that the actual map was drawn. I believe the scenario designers did that to slow things down and scale movement rates to the time period. It would also account for the terrain effects being minimized.


quote:

2. Weekly turns? Would need to be checked against whatever map scale is chosen.

At the minimum. I was actually thinking 2-week or monthly turns.


quote:

3. Remove proficiency disbands and perhaps throttle with replacement rate instead.


Not sure about this yet. The OOB is quite streamlined, but I have some issues with it.

quote:

4. Focus more on gameplay and less on historical accuracy requiring house rules, like HQ disbands for Grant because of promotions.


Always a challenge for a scenario designer. Playability vs History. I'll do my best to avoid house rules.

quote:

5. Solve the fort problem for early scenario. Boats too weak to defend.


Should be fixed with proper map scaling.


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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/24/2019 3:31:48 PM   
biddrafter2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem

Thanks for the detailed feedback. It helps to plan the direction I want this to go in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: biddrafter2
Suggestions:
1. Maybe 5KM with only likely active theaters and passes open for play? Looped rail lines to simulate distances to require less jumping around? Much less aesthetically pleasing, perhaps better gameplay.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but the internal map scale is set at 25km, which is over 3x the scale that the actual map was drawn. I believe the scenario designers did that to slow things down and scale movement rates to the time period. It would also account for the terrain effects being minimized.



I had seen the map scale versus scenario manual scale discrepancy but admit I never made the connection you did! Things make MUCH more sense all the sudden. Thank you for the education and your reply.


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RE: Any good U.S. Civil War campaign scenarios? - 8/26/2019 1:53:04 PM   
Raindem

 

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quote:

I had seen the map scale versus scenario manual scale discrepancy but admit I never made the connection you did! Things make MUCH more sense all the sudden. Thank you for the education and your reply.


You're welcome. I did something similar in my American Revolution scenario (Call to Arms) during the initial design in the early days of TOAW III. The impact was not as pronounced because that war relied less on massed firepower, and more on maneuver and unit cohesion.

But TOAW IV has more scenario design tools than previous versions, and is better at simulating pre-20th century conflicts. So other than the equipment database, I don't anticipate having to do too much outside-the-box editing to make the new project work.


< Message edited by Raindem -- 8/26/2019 1:58:05 PM >


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