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Liquid Capacity for AGP?

 
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Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/5/2019 1:27:28 PM   
Gridley380


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Had an oddball situation in the game over the weekend and it got me to thinking - would it be appropriate to model AGPs as having a SMALL liquid cargo capacity? The intent would be to allow them to refuel PTs/MTBs. This crosses the gas/fuel line, but PTs and MGBs in the game already use "fuel" so it would at least be consistent.

Pro: would allow AGPs to support PT/MGB operations as they should.
Con: would allow them to provide fuel to other ships, which they shouldn't.

Thoughts?
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RE: Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/5/2019 2:43:09 PM   
Kull


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You'd also have to mod them to be eligible members of a Replenishment TF. Which begs the question, what sort of operations would they support, and how close to the "front line" would those be? PTs are VERY shortlegged (at best having a 6 out and 6 back radius) so if you plan to send your PTs near Japanese ports, that means the replenishment TF is going to be well within air strike range. Which means it won't last long.

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RE: Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/5/2019 3:43:03 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

You'd also have to mod them to be eligible members of a Replenishment TF. Which begs the question, what sort of operations would they support, and how close to the "front line" would those be? PTs are VERY shortlegged (at best having a 6 out and 6 back radius) so if you plan to send your PTs near Japanese ports, that means the replenishment TF is going to be well within air strike range. Which means it won't last long.


Wasn't thinking UnRep, was thinking that, like a YO, they could sit in a port and replenish there or could offload their fuel to a port so the PT's could use it.

BTW, I only UnRep fuel from AO's. Individual self-applied house rule. :-)

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RE: Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/5/2019 4:13:53 PM   
Kull


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But if it's a port, just ship in fuel and handle it that way, yes? Even a dot base with 1000 fuel can sustain a small PT group for a surprisingly long period of time. In my experience, PTs intended for offensive action have to be really close to the Japanese perimeter in order to be effective, and that's just wayyyyy to close for support ships.

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RE: Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/5/2019 4:48:49 PM   
Dili

 

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I think it is a good idea, but can't they already resupply fuel from their own stock?

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RE: Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/5/2019 4:52:24 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

But if it's a port, just ship in fuel and handle it that way, yes? Even a dot base with 1000 fuel can sustain a small PT group for a surprisingly long period of time. In my experience, PTs intended for offensive action have to be really close to the Japanese perimeter in order to be effective, and that's just wayyyyy to close for support ships.


AGPs should be right up at the bases their PT's are operating from - that's their job. They should be able to refuel and resupply their PT's - that's also their job. PT's can operate from a shore base, of course, just as PBY's can - but we have AVP/AVD/AV to support them away from shore facilities.

Of course it isn't without hazard - as USS Niagara (AGP-1) showed.

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RE: Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/5/2019 5:13:10 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

AGPs should be right up at the bases their PT's are operating from - that's their job. They should be able to refuel and resupply their PT's - that's also their job. PT's can operate from a shore base, of course, just as PBY's can - but we have AVP/AVD/AV to support them away from shore facilities.

Of course it isn't without hazard - as USS Niagara (AGP-1) showed.


The AV argument doesn't really hold up, because the planes they support have VERY long ranges. No offense, but just try running a seaplane base 6 hexes away from the Japanese perimeter and see how long it lasts!

As for the tactics required to refuel and re-arm PTs, players will have different needs depending on how they use them in game. So perhaps the better discussion is, are there any instances of AGPs serving as "refueling stations" for PTs? I tend to look at them as "torpedo providers" akin to the AS and AD, and to my knowledge those didn't refuel the subs and DDs they supported.

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RE: Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/5/2019 5:28:28 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

The AV argument doesn't really hold up, because the planes they support have VERY long ranges. No offense, but just try running a seaplane base 6 hexes away from the Japanese perimeter and see how long it lasts!

As for the tactics required to refuel and re-arm PTs, players will have different needs depending on how they use them in game. So perhaps the better discussion is, are there any instances of AGPs serving as "refueling stations" for PTs? I tend to look at them as "torpedo providers" akin to the AS and AD, and to my knowledge those didn't refuel the subs and DDs they supported.


Fair enough on the AV question, I was thinking of operations from dot bases rather than proximity to the enemy.

As far as capability, NavSource lists the various AGP's with large gasoline bunkerage (62,000 gallons for USS Portunus, 105,000 for USS Acontius).

This does separate them from AS and AD, which as you say provided munitions and stores but not, to my knowledge, fuel.

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RE: Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/5/2019 5:46:00 PM   
Kull


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Ahh, that's a different kettle of fish. The Portunus and Acontius class are something completely different from the Niagra and Oyster Bay class that's available from '41 through most of '43. Of course by the time those big ships arrive, it's late 1943 and the game has changed (literally and figuratively).

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RE: Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/5/2019 6:03:25 PM   
Kull


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FYI, the Portunus class is an LST variant (landing ship, tank). Anybody interested in those can take the ferry named "Cape Henlopen" (service from New London, Connecticut to Orient, Long Island), and you'll be riding aboard perhaps the only veteran from the D-day landings which is still in service! Back then, she was LST-510.

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RE: Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/6/2019 12:49:07 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

Ahh, that's a different kettle of fish. The Portunus and Acontius class are something completely different from the Niagra and Oyster Bay class that's available from '41 through most of '43. Of course by the time those big ships arrive, it's late 1943 and the game has changed (literally and figuratively).


Navsource lists USS Oyster Bay as having 82,650 gallons of gasoline stowage. USS Niagara suffered an explosion in her gasoline tanks in her final battle.

I *did* do some research before posting the question. I'm not asking whether AGP's could refuel PT's in real life - they could and did. I'm asking about the game impact of giving AGP's a liquid cargo capacity in the game - as noted in the first post it isn't a clear "fix" because PT's cross the fuel/gas line.

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RE: Liquid Capacity for AGP? - 8/6/2019 2:15:55 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

Navsource lists USS Oyster Bay as having 82,650 gallons of gasoline stowage. USS Niagara suffered an explosion in her gasoline tanks in her final battle.

I *did* do some research before posting the question. I'm not asking whether AGP's could refuel PT's in real life - they could and did. I'm asking about the game impact of giving AGP's a liquid cargo capacity in the game - as noted in the first post it isn't a clear "fix" because PT's cross the fuel/gas line.


Got it. What you need to consider then is that while PTs need gasoline, most of the other ship classes use a different type of Fuel. Accordingly, giving fuel storage to AGPs just means that they can use it to fuel 99% of the sorts of ships that they COULDN'T in real life. Another big issue is that - absent a replenishment TF capability - a fuel storage AGP will have to unload the fuel BEFORE the PTs can use it, which is probably not the actual refueling process.

Of course yes, in-game PTs are using a class of fuel that was different from reality, but that's the sort of 1% exception you find in many parts of the game. Technically it would have been better to fuel them from Supply (similar to AvGas), but I'm guessing that required a level of coding that wasn't worth the effort.

Perhaps the simplest method is to give AGPs greater endurance, and rely on the "Refuel TF at Sea" button.

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