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WWII...What a meatgrinder!!

 
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WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 7/24/2019 5:36:10 PM   
AbwehrX


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Our poor ancestors were mad-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_losses_in_World_War_II

quote:

Grigori F. Krivosheev concludes: "Losses during strategic operations accounted for 61.48% of small-arms losses, 65.52% of tank and SP gun losses, 56.89% of gun and mortar losses and 58.6% of combat aircraft losses during the war. On average 11,000 small arms, 68 tanks, and 30 aircraft were lost each day. In such as the Baltic, Beyelorussian, Kiev and Voronezh-Voroshilovgrad defensive operations, 20-30,000 small arms, 90-290 tanks, 200-520 guns and mortars and 30-100 combat aircraft were lost daily. Losses were also high during the Battle of Kursk and Berlin offensive, with 70-90 tanks, 90-210 guns and mortars and 25-40 aircraft lost each day."


quote:

According to Grigori F. Krivosheev, the Soviet Union lost 1,014 ships of various classes, 314 were 1st, 2nd or 3rd class surface ships and submarines, 139 motor torpedo boats, 128 submarine-chasers, 77 armoured launches, 168 minesweepers and 188 patrol and other boats.


quote:

Land

French
6,126 tanks (~3,000 destroyed, ~3,000 captured by Germans). 946 armoured cars and half-track.

UK
15,844 tanks and 1,957 armoured cars lost.[6]

On the Western Front in 1944–1945, 4,477 British Commonwealth tanks were destroyed, including 2,712 M4 Sherman tanks, 656 Churchill tanks, 609 Cromwell tanks, 433 M3 Stuart light tanks, 39 Cruiser Mk VIII Challenger tanks, 26 Comet tanks, 2 M24 Chaffee light tanks.[7]

US
~10,000 tanks/SPGs/tank destroyers lost.

From June 6, 1944 through May 15, 1945 for US tank and tank destroyer losses in the European Theater of Operations, United States Army (Western Front): around 7,000 (including 4,295–4,399 M4 tanks, 178 M4 (105mm howitzer), 1,507 M3 Stuart tanks and 909–919 tank destroyers, of which 540 M10 tank destroyers, 217 M18 Hellcat and 152 M36 tank destroyers).[8][9] Losses of 5th Army (Sicily, Italy): 3,377 armored vehicles, including 1,171 M4s.[10][11][12] Several hundred tanks lost in the Pacific Theater.

Germany

Soviet claims according to Grigori F. Krivosheev: 42,700 tanks, tank destroyers, self-propelled guns and assault guns, 379,400 guns and mortars and 75,700 combat aircraft.[13] According to Heinz Guderian (supplied by Q.M.G of the General Staff of the Army): Total 33,324 tanks, assault guns, tank destroyers, self-propelled guns, armored personnel carriers and armored cars lost on the Eastern Front from 22/6/1941 until November 1944[14]

Around 87,329 half-track trucks; 36,703 half-track tractors; 21,880 half-track armoured personnel carriers destroyed or captured.
226,300 Military cars and 97,470 Military motor-cycles destroyed or captured.
159,144 Anti-tank guns and Artillery destroyed or captured.
86,400 Mortars destroyed or captured.

Italy
Around 3,500 tanks
Poland
880 tanks and tankettes destroyed and captured; some crossed into Hungary. Moreover, all armored cars were destroyed within the first two weeks of fighting.
Japan
Around 3,000 tanks/self-propelled guns
Soviet Union
According to Grigori F. Krivosheev: "All losses of arms and equipment are counted as irrecoverable losses, i.e. beyond economic repair or no longer serviceable"[15]

83,500 tanks lost: 5,200 heavy tanks, 44,900 medium tanks, 33,400 light tanks (including 11,900 Lend-Lease tanks and self-propelled guns lost[16])
13,000 SPGs lost: 2,300 heavy SPGs, 2,100 medium SPGs, 8,600 light SPGs
37,600 Armoured car and half-track (including 5,000 Lend-Lease armoured personnel carriers lost.
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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 7/24/2019 6:42:15 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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For some reason that tally brought to my mind a quote:
quote:

It is a world ruled by mad science (badly)

Atom bomb, FOR SCIENCE!

< Message edited by Kuokkanen -- 7/24/2019 6:43:01 PM >


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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 7/24/2019 8:17:37 PM   
Lobster


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Read someplace a couple of years ago that up to 1 billion human lives have been lost to war in human history making war the worst plague mankind has yet to overcome. Or maybe it's stupidity that is the greatest plague.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 7/24/2019 8:18:04 PM >


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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 7/24/2019 9:15:13 PM   
Zovs


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Stupid people get people killed, don’t be stupid.

I think I heard that in the Army a few times.

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/4/2019 10:33:15 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Stupid people get people killed, don’t be stupid.

I think I heard that in the Army a few times.

On a related note, did John Wayne ever say, "Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid"?

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/6/2019 3:14:49 AM   
KurtC


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You know, the more I hear about this Adolf Hitler Guy, the more I don't like him. - Norm MacDonald.

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 9:09:57 AM   
Neilster


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What amazes me is that the whole thing, with this vast production effort, multiple campaigns and incredible loss of life and materiel, was basically completely encompassed in only six years. Compared to later engagements in SE Asia, the Middle East, the War on Terror, the development of the F-35 etc; that now seems quite a short time.


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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 10:00:09 AM   
Orm


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You said it, Neilster.

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 10:00:48 AM   
warspite1


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I think this is partly because the wars you've mentioned are so very different. WWII was, for the most part, a 'conventional' war with countries fighting countries, two sides in uniform - and it was industrial strength (and manpower) that were key to success or failure.

Localised wars - often involving terror groups, guerillas etc can be, by their very nature, long, drawn-out affairs.

Personally I take the opposite view of WWII. The amazing thing to me is that this lasted as long as it did. For the war to last so long, there was the need for Germany to win so spectacularly in the first 2 years (and Japan the same for the first 6 months) and who could possibly have predicted the outcome of Case Yellow (not the Germans for one!).

But by December 1941 the Germans faced the combined military and industrial power of the Americans, the Soviets and the Commonwealth. The Japanese were essentially up against the US with relatively small (though not unimportant) contributions from the Commonwealth and also China.

The Axis oil situation in particular made things difficult as if fighting on so many fronts was not enough in itself. The fact is that the Germans and Japanese could never win against that amount of industrial might ranged against them. The only reason the war lasted as long as it did was because of the nature of the Axis regimes that - even when victory was no longer remotely possible (and it never was for Japan) - their leaders refused to surrender. To a sane person Germany had lost the war at the end of 1942 but was to go on to no good purpose for another two and a half years.

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 10:03:25 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Stupid people get people killed, don’t be stupid.

I think I heard that in the Army a few times.

On a related note, did John Wayne ever say, "Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid"?

No, Zorch, it seems that John Wayne didn't say that.

At least according to this conclusion from quote investigator.


In conclusion, QI believes that George V. Higgins deserves credit for this saying because it appeared in his 1971 novel. A close variant was included in the 1973 screenplay of the book, and the line was delivered by the actor Steven Keats. Instances of the phrase have been attributed to Robert Mitchum by 1978 and to John Wayne by 1987. But these linkages were late and poorly supported. Red Foxx used the saying in 1991 after it was already in circulation.


See link for details. https://.com/2018/01/16/hard-life/

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 10:18:19 AM   
stuart3

 

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quote:

UK
15,844 tanks and 1,957 armoured cars lost.


Spread over six years of war? It demonstrates how well the lessons had been learned. Beats the hell out of 20,000 fatalities on a single day's attacking on the Somme in 1916. The policy was deliberate and designed to limit the cost in lives.

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 11:34:07 AM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Stupid people get people killed, don’t be stupid.

I think I heard that in the Army a few times.

On a related note, did John Wayne ever say, "Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid"?

No, Zorch, it seems that John Wayne didn't say that.

At least according to this conclusion from quote investigator.


In conclusion, QI believes that George V. Higgins deserves credit for this saying because it appeared in his 1971 novel. A close variant was included in the 1973 screenplay of the book, and the line was delivered by the actor Steven Keats. Instances of the phrase have been attributed to Robert Mitchum by 1978 and to John Wayne by 1987. But these linkages were late and poorly supported. Red Foxx used the saying in 1991 after it was already in circulation.


See link for details. https://.com/2018/01/16/hard-life/

Thank you.

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Post #: 12
RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 12:55:53 PM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think this is partly because the wars you've mentioned are so very different. WWII was, for the most part, a 'conventional' war with countries fighting countries, two sides in uniform - and it was industrial strength (and manpower) that were key to success or failure.

Localised wars - often involving terror groups, guerillas etc can be, by their very nature, long, drawn-out affairs.

Personally I take the opposite view of WWII. The amazing thing to me is that this lasted as long as it did. For the war to last so long, there was the need for Germany to win so spectacularly in the first 2 years (and Japan the same for the first 6 months) and who could possibly have predicted the outcome of Case Yellow (not the Germans for one!).

But by December 1941 the Germans faced the combined military and industrial power of the Americans, the Soviets and the Commonwealth. The Japanese were essentially up against the US with relatively small (though not unimportant) contributions from the Commonwealth and also China.

The Axis oil situation in particular made things difficult as if fighting on so many fronts was not enough in itself. The fact is that the Germans and Japanese could never win against that amount of industrial might ranged against them. The only reason the war lasted as long as it did was because of the nature of the Axis regimes that - even when victory was no longer remotely possible (and it never was for Japan) - their leaders refused to surrender. To a sane person Germany had lost the war at the end of 1942 but was to go on to no good purpose for another two and a half years.



I take your point that almost everything went right for the Germans in particular for them to seize their empire in the first place and I agree re conventional vs asymmetrical wars but Hitler especially and the Japanese to a lesser extent, botched the defensive operations to defend their empires. Hitler was an atrocious warlord and made things much easier for the Allies with "no retreat" orders and foolish counterattacks. It should have taken the Allies longer to defeat the Axis.

Of course, one could say that the atomic bomb would have ended things soon after August 1945 anyway and that is probably true of Japan but in the scenario I've posited the Russians wouldn't be in a position to invade Manchuria yet (which I think was instrumental in Japan's decision to come to terms), as Germany is still undefeated.

Say you have an atom bomb on a B-29 in England. Given that Germany has advanced jet interceptors with heavy armament, what probability is there that it can be delivered? What safeguards are there to prevent, say, a crash landed bomber delivering said atom bomb to the Germans? For that matter, what were the historical safeguards to prevent such a situation in Japan?

We can probably assume that the Luftwaffe are a spent force by August 1945, even with a more rational defence policy, but given that they remained active right till the end historically, there must still be a risk.


< Message edited by Neilster -- 8/10/2019 1:01:42 PM >


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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 2:34:29 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Don't forget Sarin. The Germans had it, but Hitler nixed using it.

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 2:44:20 PM   
RangerJoe


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Apparently he did not like getting gassed in WW1.

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 2:55:47 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Apparently he did not like getting gassed in WW1.

That's probably the best guess, but we don't really know why. For sure he couldn't have fully understood what he had.

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 3:29:20 PM   
RangerJoe


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I think that he did but I also read where he was concerned about Allied poison gas. The German was was better but think of the Bomber Command would have dropped mustard gas instead of incendiaries . . .

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 3:50:32 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I think that he did but I also read where he was concerned about Allied poison gas. The German was was better but think of the Bomber Command would have dropped mustard gas instead of incendiaries . . .

Mustard gas is defeated by a simple gas mask, and even without that, it isn't that deadly.

A droplet of sarin 1/1000 the size of a rain drop touching you anywhere on your skin will kill you in 1 minute. You need a full neoprene body suit to defeat it. And the Allies did not have such suits on their soldier's persons. Sarin simply can't be compared to WWI gases. It's a whole different animal.

An interesting possibility was that the British had intended to initiate chemical warfare if Sea Lion was launched. Obviously, that would have automatically initiated German chemical warfare. Hitler would have found out very quickly that he had a huge edge.

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RE: WWII...What a meatgrinder!! - 8/10/2019 3:55:27 PM   
RangerJoe


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I know a little about chemical warfare, I was trained to use Atropine . . .

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Post #: 19
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