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Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/13/2019 3:43:18 PM   
Lobster


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https://steamcharts.com/app/792660#7d

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/13/2019 4:53:27 PM   
76mm


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I'd be surprised if more than a small fraction of TAOW players even use new-fangled things like Steam.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/13/2019 5:06:04 PM   
sPzAbt653


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I would be tarred, feathered and railed if I were seen in a steam app ! But I have to admit I am curious as to what the link is for, and I will also admit that if there were any value to steam, I would say so.

(in reply to 76mm)
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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/13/2019 5:29:31 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
But I have to admit I am curious as to what the link is for...


The link just shows steam usage stats for TOAW IV...go ahead, take a peek, we won't tell!

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/13/2019 8:43:49 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Thanks Tom -

An ongoing analysis of Steam's concurrent players.

GG's War in the East on top [blue]
TOAW in the middle [green]
Advanced Tactics Gold on the bottom [gold]

I made quick picks based on what I thought would be a title better than TOAW and a title less than TOAW. Doesn't mean anything to me by just looking at it once, but it is some fun. I still won't admit that steam is useful for something because it didn't tell me anything I didn't already know by following the forums here

- and great, now i have used steam for something and I will burn in hell!




Attachment (1)

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/13/2019 10:12:50 PM   
thomasharvey


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I am no expert on Steam but it is my understanding it works best for players who have multiple games that all receive patches in the form of downloads. The Steam system will patch all the separate games automatically no matter how many there are and it is done at times selected by the player, usually in the middle of the night. The player spends no time at all on the updates.

The games are all concentrated and organized in one place. It is also convenient to purchase and load a game on the Steam platform. Just point and click.

I have one TOAW IV game on Steam on one computer and another version not on steam on a different computer. Steam allows TOAW IV to be played off line but it limits you to having just one game open at a time. On my non steam computer I can have multiple TOAW IV games and editor screens open at the same time.

There are other features to steam including the workshop area but I have not explored that yet.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/13/2019 10:59:58 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
An ongoing analysis of Steam's concurrent players.

GG's War in the East on top [blue]
TOAW in the middle [green]
Advanced Tactics Gold on the bottom [gold]

Actually I'm quite surprised that there are that many WitE players on Steam these days. I haven't played WitE in several years now...

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/14/2019 1:43:40 AM   
Lobster


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I have a multitude of TOAW installs. One for editing scenarios (4.1.0.3) because it isn't broken. One for playing pbem (4.1.0.21) which is the Steam install. One for testing which is the non Steam install. TOAWIII because it does some things better and I like some of the old ways. Sometimes all of them are going.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/14/2019 1:51:42 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

One for editing scenarios (4.1.0.3) because it isn't broken.

Thanks for the tip. I'll go to the beta FTP site and grab a copy and use
it for my icon color changes.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/14/2019 3:29:56 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Won't work.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/14/2019 6:10:27 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

I have a multitude of TOAW installs. One for editing scenarios (4.1.0.3) because it isn't broken.

I'd like to report here that 4.1.0.3 in fact, did CTD when I tried to change an icon color.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/14/2019 9:58:16 AM   
LeeChard

 

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I use steam for some games. The ones that your required to have. For Matrix and others I would
get the games directly from the source.
There are some advantages to steam for instance auto updating as mentioned before but some serious
downsides like occasionally if I have a problem with steam it effects every game you have on the
platform.

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Post #: 12
RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/14/2019 1:01:12 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

I have a multitude of TOAW installs. One for editing scenarios (4.1.0.3) because it isn't broken.

I'd like to report here that 4.1.0.3 in fact, did CTD when I tried to change an icon color.


I NEVER use the new Unit Report to change ANYTHING. It's not only broken anyplace in the known universe, it's also broken in every other universe.

However, other useful bits are not broken. For instance in 'fixing' the Open Unit and Save Unit bits someone made it so any saved units previous to the 'fix' could no longer be used. LMFAO. I was not surprised.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 1:00:16 AM   
RealChuckB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I would be tarred, feathered and railed if I were seen in a steam app ! But I have to admit I am curious as to what the link is for, and I will also admit that if there were any value to steam, I would say so.


I never understood this attitude towards Steam. While I certainly don't think that Steam is the greatest thing ever, it has many advantages over the old way of distributing games (especially if you own multiple computers) and I seriously don't know why it invokes such negative emotions in some people, especially in ones that never used it. Especially with Matrix Games, I think you get the best of both worlds (I will always buy from MG directly to give them the largest cut but then use the Steam key you get to install and play the game through Steam).

Really curious ...

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 1:38:39 AM   
Blond_Knight


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I think its about our eroding rights as consumers. When I buy from Matrix/Slitherine, its mine until the OS wont run it anymore or I get tired of it.
When I buy from Steam Im buying a "license" to run the game, I dont own the game.

Then there's the concern of what if Steam went under. Now thats not a realistic concern but ten years ago it was a valid question. So if Steam goes away Im out all the games I bought from them. With Matrix/Slitherine since I store all my games, patches, and mods on multiple hard drives; if MG goes under Im sad but what Ive previously bought isnt impacted.

Personally I tend to buy the lower priced games I dont care about on Steam and buy my wargames here and johntillersoftware.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 2:22:15 AM   
danlongman

 

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I initially was quite leery of Steam because of the license vs ownership issue
and the idea that I do not know how much money goes to those who produce the game.
I relented because of the convenience and ease of operation. I buy most of my favorites
direct from Matrix/Slitherine but many others I got on Steam. For the record I own almost
all the Matrix/Slitherine catalogue and am a player and collector.

As a final note the customer service I have received from Matrix/Slitherine is second
to none across the industry. I have NEVER gotten any satisfactory customer service
from Steam. It is just the way they are.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 3:18:15 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: danlongman

I initially was quite leery of Steam because of the license vs ownership issue
and the idea that I do not know how much money goes to those who produce the game.
I relented because of the convenience and ease of operation. I buy most of my favorites
direct from Matrix/Slitherine but many others I got on Steam. For the record I own almost
all the Matrix/Slitherine catalogue and am a player and collector.

As a final note the customer service I have received from Matrix/Slitherine is second
to none across the industry. I have NEVER gotten any satisfactory customer service
from Steam. It is just the way they are.


My experience is just the opposite. I 'returned' a game that was far past the refund date and they gave me a refund because I had a valid reason. They didn't have to. I've never had a problem getting Steam issues resolved. Where problems arise is with the publishers.

I also buy from Matrix and then get a Steam key.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 3:35:42 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

When I buy from Steam Im buying a "license" to run the game, I dont own the game.



Okay, you're joking right? Hard to find any game software that isn't open source or public domain that is NOT licensed these days.

From your TOAWIV directory. The end users (you) agreement:

READ THIS SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT CAREFULLY BEFORE PROCEEDING TO INSTALL THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT AND OR UTILISING ANY OF OUR SERVICES. BY PRESSING "AGREE," YOU ("LICENSEE") AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THIS LICENSE AND THE TERMS HEREIN. YOU THERFORE ACCEPT AND AGREE TO THE CONTENTS OF THIS LICENSE IN ITS ENTIRETY.

From GG War in the East:

SINGLE USE SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT
READ THIS SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT ("LICENSE") CAREFULLY BEFORE
PROCEEDING TO INSTALL THE SOFTWARE. BY INSTALLING THE SOFTWARE YOU
HAVE AGREED TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE. THIS LICENSE
AGREEMENT IS A LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT BETWEEN YOU AND SLITHERINE
LTD. AND/OR ITS SUBSIDIARIES, AFFILIATES OR SUB LICENSEES.
1. General. This software product is copyrighted and is protected by international law. The
software and any accompanying documentation or media including this License whether on
disk, in read only memory, or in any other form are licensed, not sold, to you by either
Slitherine Ltd or Matrix Games Ltd
and is for use only under the terms of this License.
Slitherine and or Matrix Games reserves all rights not expressly granted to you. The rights
granted herein are limited and do not include any patents or intellectual property rights.
Slitherine and or Matrix Games expressly retain ownership of the Software itself.

Advanced Tactics Gold:

Software product license
This software product is copyrighted (by national law and international contracts.) This software product has
not been sold to you, but is only licensed to you.


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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 10:09:53 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

I never understood this attitude towards Steam ... I seriously don't know why it invokes such negative emotions ...
Really curious ...

Then you haven't seen any of my other posts explaining how steam negatively affects some of us. The most recent was at this linked thread. It's not about 'negative emotions', it's about providing a public service by letting people make a better informed decision when purchasing a game.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4657996

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 7/15/2019 10:11:22 AM >

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 12:49:32 PM   
Blond_Knight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

When I buy from Steam Im buying a "license" to run the game, I dont own the game.



Okay, you're joking right? Hard to find any game software that isn't open source or public domain that is NOT licensed these days.

Software product license
This software product is copyrighted (by national law and international contracts.) This software product has
not been sold to you, but is only licensed to you.




Technically your quite right. But the likelihood of Steam or some product with an online license scheme would be in a much better position to enforce that than MG would.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 1:30:44 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight
Technically your quite right. But the likelihood of Steam or some product with an online license scheme would be in a much better position to enforce that than MG would.

I think what Blond Knight is saying is that Steam could cut off access to your game(s) with the flip of a switch if they wanted to, whereas it seems like the best Matrix could do would be to lock you out of patches, etc.

For me the only advantage offered by Steam is automatic patching/updating, but that is not a big deal for me. I generally don't play games on my laptop, so being able to play on multiple computers is almost meaningless (and besides, I can install any game I have on multiple computers even without Steam, so...). I though it would be cool to be able to track how many hours I play each game, until I realized that it counts the game as being "played" whenever it is open on my computer, so if I leave games open for a week (as I do), those play hours are completely meaningless as well. And did I mention Steam's horrible UI? I feel like banging my head on a wall every time I use it.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 2:03:59 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight
Technically your quite right. But the likelihood of Steam or some product with an online license scheme would be in a much better position to enforce that than MG would.

I think what Blond Knight is saying is that Steam could cut off access to your game(s) with the flip of a switch if they wanted to, whereas it seems like the best Matrix could do would be to lock you out of patches, etc.

For me the only advantage offered by Steam is automatic patching/updating, but that is not a big deal for me. I generally don't play games on my laptop, so being able to play on multiple computers is almost meaningless (and besides, I can install any game I have on multiple computers even without Steam, so...). I though it would be cool to be able to track how many hours I play each game, until I realized that it counts the game as being "played" whenever it is open on my computer, so if I leave games open for a week (as I do), those play hours are completely meaningless as well. And did I mention Steam's horrible UI? I feel like banging my head on a wall every time I use it.


No, they can't. You have the opportunity to back up every install of every game and you have the key to all of them. There is no flip of the switch. And what horrible UI? You click on the Steam icon and have a list of your games. You click on the game and play it. You are not there to play Steam. You are there to play a game. And who gives a hang about how many hours you play. I don't care about how many hours I've played a game. It is meaningless statistics. I suppose someone with an accountant attitude might care.

I forgot. One of the best things is that any update is there for you. If you have ten non Steam games you may have to look ten different places to check for a patch. That was a pain in the rear and time consuming. Rather just be playing a game instead of checking to see if a patch is available.

Please, tell me about the horrible UI.

You know, all of the Steamophobics have a personal issue about using it. That's ok, each to his own. I like many things about it and dislike few. Some feel the other way. Everyone has their own brain. But I like to let people make up their own mind instead of throwing trash and propaganda in their path to try and influence them in a negative manner.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 7/15/2019 2:08:37 PM >


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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 2:25:02 PM   
Lobster


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It's sad. Very sad. I was pointing out how well this very old game is doing and the Steamophobes come out of the woodwork like roaches.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 2:31:54 PM   
Blond_Knight


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Sorry, I was trying to answer RealchuckB's question about why some people don't like Steam.

I would like to point out that while you can locally backup your games from Steam as you stated, Youre not going to be running those games outside Steam. My point is if Steam is hit by a bus or Steam decides you don't have a license anymore for a game your not playing it, files or not.

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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 2:33:53 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
And what horrible UI? You click on the Steam icon and have a list of your games. You click on the game and play it. You are not there to play Steam. You are there to play a game...Please, tell me about the horrible UI.

um, I been telling you about the horrible UI. And no, Steam is not just to launch games as you suggest...everything from messaging, to forums, to uploading mods, is a major pain. And most of all, most of the screen is taken up by adverts for, or links to, crap that I have no interest in (currently my Stream screen is full of crap about Fortnite, DOTA, DOOM, etc, none of which I have every expressed an interest in.

When I launch a game on my computer, I go to the desktop folder where all of them are installed. No log-in, no adverts, no fuss.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
You know, all of the Steamophobics have a personal issue about using it...But I like to let people make up their own mind instead of throwing trash and propaganda in their path to try and influence them in a negative manner.

I don't have a "personal issue", I've explained why I don't like it; I don't really care if people like Steam, but it is not for me. I have not called your opinion "trash and propaganda" so I'm not sure why you feel the need to label mine as such?

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Post #: 25
RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 3:44:52 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

Sorry, I was trying to answer RealchuckB's question about why some people don't like Steam.

I would like to point out that while you can locally backup your games from Steam as you stated, Youre not going to be running those games outside Steam. My point is if Steam is hit by a bus or Steam decides you don't have a license anymore for a game your not playing it, files or not.


You don't have to have an internet connection to run Steam. So if your power goes out because of errant buses you can still run Steam. You need Steam to run in the background because of the mostly DRM titles. Also, while you seem to think Steam decides whether or not a game is DRM, they don't. That is entirely up to the publisher/developer. It is not a Steam decision. Steam does have DRM free games. Some with caveats decided on by the publisher/developer. https://steam.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games

Steam cannot and would not 'revoke' a license. That is a publisher/developer decision. Steam is simply a middleman. Steam insures that games cannot be pirated. A good example is GOG. They had (maybe still do) a policy where you could 'return' a digital download if you didn't like a game. Same as Steam. But because the game was DRM free many people would say they were 'returning' the game when in fact they still had it. Some even bragged about it. So the publisher/developer was without the income and yet people still had the game. Humanity at it's finest.

Some don't like the fee Steam charges developers or publishers. In some cases it can go as high as 30%. It does prevent piracy and ensures publishers/developers their income. It also gives people a piracy free platform to get into the industry. That's why you see so much 'garbage' as some put it. Developers who have not had the fortune to get into a big house can start on their own. You have to start someplace. Also publishers are to blame for some of the 'garbage'. They throw out game development packages like they were illicit drugs making it easy to make a, I say this in the loosest sense, game. BTW, some smaller and independent developers are talking about unionizing so they have some clout in bargaining for their 'garbage'.

So, a new developer can go to Steam and try to sell their game. Without Steam exposure they might sell 100 copies at $10. With Steam they might sell 700 copies at $7. Which is better?

BTW, latest year I've seen, $74 billion estimated lost to piracy in 2014. That is a lot of money. Now if you can come up with a way to prevent piracy, expose noob devs to a large public audience and pay your bills without taking any money from the devs I'm sure you will be very popular.

So if you don't like Steam or the many other platforms like them and think they should all go away then fine, your call. But if you think Steam and all the other platforms like them are evil you are wrong. They do have a place in this software piracy world.

"The popular gaming news outlet PC Gamer conducted a survey last year in which they received 50,742 answers from players all over the world. The question at hand? Whether or not they had ever pirated a video game. Turns out, 90% of PC gamers have pirated a game, and 25% have pirated more than 50.

Turns out there is far more data on this. For instance, younger players between the ages of 10 and 25 were the most likely to pirate, “. . . with that likelihood decreasing about 5% per age group between 16-20 and 51-60.” Also, those earning less than $10,000 annually pirate the most, at 50%, while those making $10,001 – $25,000 fall at about 32.5%.The U.S. alone pirates more games than the U.K. and Canada combined.

When asked if they think it’s wrong, 34.8% of the respondents answered yes but that it didn’t stop them. This is further explained, however: most players use piracy to demo a video game. Others simply can’t afford them.

Most surprisingly, DRM is listed as the second to last reason for piracy. Although complaints about DRM or specific publishers are common, they weren’t cited as reasons to pirate. In fact, “Those reasons never rose above 20 percent.”

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Post #: 26
RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 3:48:48 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
And what horrible UI? You click on the Steam icon and have a list of your games. You click on the game and play it. You are not there to play Steam. You are there to play a game...Please, tell me about the horrible UI.

um, I been telling you about the horrible UI. And no, Steam is not just to launch games as you suggest...everything from messaging, to forums, to uploading mods, is a major pain. And most of all, most of the screen is taken up by adverts for, or links to, crap that I have no interest in (currently my Stream screen is full of crap about Fortnite, DOTA, DOOM, etc, none of which I have every expressed an interest in.

When I launch a game on my computer, I go to the desktop folder where all of them are installed. No log-in, no adverts, no fuss.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
You know, all of the Steamophobics have a personal issue about using it...But I like to let people make up their own mind instead of throwing trash and propaganda in their path to try and influence them in a negative manner.

I don't have a "personal issue", I've explained why I don't like it; I don't really care if people like Steam, but it is not for me. I have not called your opinion "trash and propaganda" so I'm not sure why you feel the need to label mine as such?



My user interface. What ads? What links? What are you doing wrong? What login? BTW, when you launch TOAW you are faced with ads and links unless you try and launch from the .exe directly.

"trash and propaganda" is a reference to the general things I see on the internet directed at things people don't like so they can make their argument 'correct'. And not just Steam. We are all guilty at some point. I've never said anything was good or bad. Simply try it and decide for yourself instead of listening to negative opinions (trash and propaganda) from others.





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< Message edited by Lobster -- 7/15/2019 3:54:56 PM >


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Post #: 27
RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 3:57:30 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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Again, this was supposed to be about how well TOAW was doing after 20+ years. Others made it about other things, basically a platform so they can bash Steam instead of celebrate TOAW.

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(in reply to Lobster)
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RE: Not bad for a 20+ year old game - 7/15/2019 5:47:53 PM   
sPzAbt653


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From: east coast, usa
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TOAW would be doing much better without steam

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 29
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